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kevin
12-17-2001, 02:15 AM
here are 34 "speed secrets" from "speed secrets, professional race driving techniques" by ross bently.


pick and choose as you will.

1. the less you do with the controls, the less chance of errors.
2. the slower YOU move, the faster the CAR moves.
3. squeeze the brake pedal on, and ease off.
4. the trhottle is not an on-off switch.
5. the less you turn the steering wheel, the faster you will go.
6. keep steering movement to a minimum.
7. check you mirrors as oftenas it takes to always know where everyone else is around you.
8. a shift should be made gently and with finesse.
9. brake first - then downshift.
10. you will never win a race without understanding how tires work.
11. drive at the lowest possible slip angle that maintains maximum traction.
12. smooth is fast.
13. build up the tire's cornering force slowly.
14. overlap your braking, cornering and acceleration forces.
15. races are won on the straightaway, not in the corners.
16. it is better to go into a corner slow and come out fast, rather than vice versa.
17. the more time you spend with the front wheels pointed straight ahead - or near straight - and the throttle to the floor, the faster you will be.
18. the less time spent braking, the faster you will be.
19. before you can win, you have to learn where to go fast.
20. the most important corner is the fastest one leading onto a straightaway.
21. look for and drive the grippiest pavement.
22. if the car feels like it is on rails, you are probably driving too slow.
23. when passing, always "present" yourself.
24. focus on your own performance rather than on the competition.
25. focus your eyes where you want to go, not where you don't want to go or where you are.
26. look - and think - as far ahead as possible.
27. your right foot should either be on the brakes, squeezing the throttle down, or flat to the floor.
28. practice how you plan to race, and then you'll race as you practiced.
29. practice doesn't make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect.
30. races are not won in the first corner; however, they are often lost there.
31. most races are decided in the last 10% of the race.
32. you have to be close to take advantage of luck.
33. given equal cars and equal talent, the driver who is in the best physical condition is going to win.
34. if you can't afford good safety equipment, you can't afford to go racing.

98banana
12-17-2001, 06:32 AM
Originally posted by kevin

...

22. if the car feels like it is on rails, you are probably driving too slow.

...



I like all of those and believe in every one of them, but I had to think about 22 for a minute. But, I guess it's true. I can't imagine a car going around a turn without any drift or sliding or other body movements if it's not at or near the limit. Is that what #22 is talking about?:confused:

kevin
12-17-2001, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by 98banana


I like all of those and believe in every one of them, but I had to think about 22 for a minute. But, I guess it's true. I can't imagine a car going around a turn without any drift or sliding or other body movements if it's not at or near the limit. Is that what #22 is talking about?:confused:

exactly. if it feels like rails on a turn, next time go a little faster. do this each time till your slide/drift is JUST controllable.

Dean95CobraR
12-17-2001, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by kevin
15. races are won on the straightaway, not in the corners.


This one seems a little strange to me. It seems like you can make up more time when you execute a perfect corner than you can just putting your foot to the floor. It takes much more skill to go quickly through a corner than a straightaway. :confused:

Cobra-R
12-17-2001, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR


This one seems a little strange to me. It seems like you can make up more time when you execute a perfect corner than you can just putting your foot to the floor. It takes much more skill to go quickly through a corner than a straightaway. :confused:

I agree, Dean. Every type of racing I have ever done, most time is made up in the corners. Someone must have an explaination for us.

svt_coupe
12-17-2001, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Cobra-R


I agree, Dean. Every type of racing I have ever done, most time is made up in the corners. Someone must have an explaination for us.

You get around the track in the least amount of time by going fast. Corners aren't the fastest part of a course - the straights are. Therefore, if you can get to higher speeds on the straights, you'll get around the track faster.

The most important corner on any given track is the one that leads to the longest straight (that is probably the single most important concept about going fast around a track). You want to setup for that corner so you'll get the maximum exit speed so your "terminal speed" on the straight is higher. That is how you get fast lap times (it's also how a higher horsepower car can "fake" good lap times with a mediocre driver - they cover the most amount of track in the least amount of time). The next most important corner is the one that leads to the 2nd longest straight... and so on. Get a track map out and study the straights. Then, plan for the most important corners and keep that in your mind.

You should always be thinking as far ahead as possible. If you can think 1-2 corners away, you'll be quicker. If you can think 4-5 corners away, even quicker yet. The idea of thinking about a road course as a circuit is paramount to fast lap times.

Think about it this way - if you have 2 cars side by side in a corner, you'll both be considerably slower because the party line or the qualifying line (the fast line) is being compromised. So, passing in corner is fun to watch, but it is slower. If a pass can be done on a straight away (that includes the braking zone - passing under braking), both cars will be faster.

svt_coupe
12-17-2001, 01:21 PM
BTW- Kevin... those are pretty good. I've seen them before and every one of them is dead on.

Cobra-R
12-17-2001, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by svt_coupe


You get around the track in the least amount of time by going fast. Corners aren't the fastest part of a course - the straights are. Therefore, if you can get to higher speeds on the straights, you'll get around the track faster.

The most important corner on any given track is the one that leads to the longest straight (that is probably the single most important concept about going fast around a track). You want to setup for that corner so you'll get the maximum exit speed so your "terminal speed" on the straight is higher. That is how you get fast lap times (it's also how a higher horsepower car can "fake" good lap times with a mediocre driver - they cover the most amount of track in the least amount of time). The next most important corner is the one that leads to the 2nd longest straight... and so on. Get a track map out and study the straights. Then, plan for the most important corners and keep that in your mind.

You should always be thinking as far ahead as possible. If you can think 1-2 corners away, you'll be quicker. If you can think 4-5 corners away, even quicker yet. The idea of thinking about a road course as a circuit is paramount to fast lap times.

Think about it this way - if you have 2 cars side by side in a corner, you'll both be considerably slower because the party line or the qualifying line (the fast line) is being compromised. So, passing in corner is fun to watch, but it is slower. If a pass can be done on a straight away (that includes the braking zone - passing under braking), both cars will be faster.

Thanks, Bryan.

kevin
12-17-2001, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by svt_coupe
BTW- Kevin... those are pretty good. I've seen them before and every one of them is dead on.

thanks.

your answer to deans question is what i would say (course u said it better than i ever would have)

i thot posting these might be a good idea. most people learn by oral or visual and sometimes both. it's easy to say some of these things, butt it's great for visual learners to see it.

you may find this list posted in my trailer;)

Dean95CobraR
12-17-2001, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by svt_coupe


You get around the track in the least amount of time by going fast. Corners aren't the fastest part of a course - the straights are. Therefore, if you can get to higher speeds on the straights, you'll get around the track faster.

The most important corner on any given track is the one that leads to the longest straight (that is probably the single most important concept about going fast around a track). You want to setup for that corner so you'll get the maximum exit speed so your "terminal speed" on the straight is higher. That is how you get fast lap times (it's also how a higher horsepower car can "fake" good lap times with a mediocre driver - they cover the most amount of track in the least amount of time). The next most important corner is the one that leads to the 2nd longest straight... and so on. Get a track map out and study the straights. Then, plan for the most important corners and keep that in your mind.

You should always be thinking as far ahead as possible. If you can think 1-2 corners away, you'll be quicker. If you can think 4-5 corners away, even quicker yet. The idea of thinking about a road course as a circuit is paramount to fast lap times.

Think about it this way - if you have 2 cars side by side in a corner, you'll both be considerably slower because the party line or the qualifying line (the fast line) is being compromised. So, passing in corner is fun to watch, but it is slower. If a pass can be done on a straight away (that includes the braking zone - passing under braking), both cars will be faster.



If this is true, how did a Miata pass Brian? :confused: :rotf: :rotf:

Oops, sorry. :grinangel

Dean95CobraR
12-17-2001, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by svt_coupe


You get around the track in the least amount of time by going fast. Corners aren't the fastest part of a course - the straights are. Therefore, if you can get to higher speeds on the straights, you'll get around the track faster.

The most important corner on any given track is the one that leads to the longest straight (that is probably the single most important concept about going fast around a track). You want to setup for that corner so you'll get the maximum exit speed so your "terminal speed" on the straight is higher. That is how you get fast lap times (it's also how a higher horsepower car can "fake" good lap times with a mediocre driver - they cover the most amount of track in the least amount of time). The next most important corner is the one that leads to the 2nd longest straight... and so on. Get a track map out and study the straights. Then, plan for the most important corners and keep that in your mind.

You should always be thinking as far ahead as possible. If you can think 1-2 corners away, you'll be quicker. If you can think 4-5 corners away, even quicker yet. The idea of thinking about a road course as a circuit is paramount to fast lap times.

Think about it this way - if you have 2 cars side by side in a corner, you'll both be considerably slower because the party line or the qualifying line (the fast line) is being compromised. So, passing in corner is fun to watch, but it is slower. If a pass can be done on a straight away (that includes the braking zone - passing under braking), both cars will be faster.


I guess I kinda understand your reasoning but even under your explanation, the way you set up and exit the corner determines how well you get down the straight. So which is more important? I guess that is what initially had me confused.

I understand how a bad corner would put a damper on your straightaway speed. This happened to me quite a few times at Road America and the large hill heading up the straightaway just compounded the problem.

kevin
12-17-2001, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR




If this is true, how did a Miata pass Brian? :confused: :rotf: :rotf:

Oops, sorry. :grinangel


driver error or beginners luck:rotf: :rotf:

kevin
12-17-2001, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR



I guess I kinda understand your reasoning but even under your explanation, the way you set up and exit the corner determines how well you get down the straight. So which is more important? I guess that is what initially had me confused.

I understand how a bad corner would put a damper on your straightaway speed. This happened to me quite a few times at Road America and the large hill heading up the straightaway just compounded the problem.


not sure what you mean here?

johnbasf
12-17-2001, 08:09 PM
If that's true how did Tom catch up with the Viper? Man you guys are really confusing the hell out of me. I have been thinking about getting the kind of setup Tom has, but I guess I'll just get a blower and beat everyone. Excuse this newbie for he is trying to learn.:D

98banana
12-17-2001, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by johnbasf
If that's true how did Tom catch up with the Viper? Man you guys are really confusing the hell out of me. I have been thinking about getting the kind of setup Tom has, but I guess I'll just get a blower and beat everyone. Excuse this newbie for he is trying to learn.:D

What Bryan said is exactly how to catch a Viper. Take the corners right and your straight speeds will increase enough to make up for a car with more HP taking bad turns.

Here's the way I see it. The straights do win races because that's where the speed is, but you need to get the corners right to take advantage of the straights. If you blow the turn, ie. fast in slow out, then the straight suffers and you get passed by somebody that took the turn better. You get passed in the straights because the other car was better in the turn. So, I guess it's all a matter of symantics.

I am a firm believer in getting the corners right first. I've caught up with way too many cars, including vipers, because my car can take the corners. They would take off and leave me in the straights only because of sheer HP, but I would catch up in the next braking zone and stay with them in the curves.

Dean95CobraR
12-17-2001, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by 98banana


What Bryan said is exactly how to catch a Viper. Take the corners right and your straight speeds will increase enough to make up for a car with more HP taking bad turns.

Here's the way I see it. The straights do win races because that's where the speed is, but you need to get the corners right to take advantage of the straights. If you blow the turn, ie. fast in slow out, then the straight suffers and you get passed by somebody that took the turn better. You get passed in the straights because the other car was better in the turn. So, I guess it's all a matter of symantics.

I am a firm believer in getting the corners right first. I've caught up with way too many cars, including vipers, because my car can take the corners. They would take off and leave me in the straights only because of sheer HP, but I would catch up in the next braking zone and stay with them in the curves.


You guys are making my point. If you can't get through the corners, the straightaway speed will suffer. Everything seems to be effected by your cornering technique and that's why I think the corners are more important than the straights. That's why I think that statement is backwards:p

I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand the statement. I wish I could state my case more effectively. I know Ross Bently knows a helluva lot more than me, as do most of you, but the statement seems backwards or at least one is as important as the other.

If you guys had a choice, which would it be? Better in the corners or faster on the straights.

kevin
12-17-2001, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by johnbasf
If that's true how did Tom catch up with the Viper? Man you guys are really confusing the hell out of me. I have been thinking about getting the kind of setup Tom has, but I guess I'll just get a blower and beat everyone. Excuse this newbie for he is trying to learn.:D


viper error??????

Cobra-R
12-17-2001, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR



You guys are making my point. If you can't get through the corners, the straightaway speed will suffer. Everything seems to be effected by your cornering technique and that's why I think the corners are more important than the straights. That's why I think that statement is backwards:p

I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand the statement. I wish I could state my case more effectively. I know Ross Bently knows a helluva lot more than me, as do most of you, but the statement seems backwards or at least one is as important as the other.

If you guys had a choice, which would it be? Better in the corners or faster on the straights.

My thoughts are exactly the same as yours, dean. The talk about Straight away speed seems very dependant on your corner exit speed.

kevin
12-17-2001, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR



You guys are making my point. If you can't get through the corners, the straightaway speed will suffer. Everything seems to be effected by your cornering technique and that's why I think the corners are more important than the straights. That's why I think that statement is backwards:p

I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand the statement. I wish I could state my case more effectively. I know Ross Bently knows a helluva lot more than me, as do most of you, but the statement seems backwards or at least one is as important as the other.

If you guys had a choice, which would it be? Better in the corners or faster on the straights.

in the open track events i would say faster in the straights cause that is where passing is usually restricted too and too many high hp cars hold ya back in the turns and blast the straights.

in a race or nasa event where passing is allowed anywhere (depending on your run group) i'd rather be faster in the corner.

unlike road america and vir, most tracks have rather short straights. if you nail the corner better than the next guy you have a better chance of passing immediately out of the corner even if he/she has more power. if you take a turn at 50mph and the other guy slows to 45mph and has more power - he's gonna catch ya - eventually. but, if your exit speed is higher, you have the advantage out and the other guy has to catch up, and maybe not before the next turn (again, most tracks have short straights) if you continue to do better in the corners you will slowly but surely outpace over time.

now take my speed example up a notch. accelerating from 45 or 50 is fairly easy at those speeds. but, if you take the turn at 100mph and the other guy does so at 95mph (generally but not always) the 5mph is harder to make up even fopr a higher hp car.

did i make this clear enough?? not sure i said it right.

Cobra-R
12-17-2001, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by kevin


in the open track events i would say faster in the straights cause that is where passing is usually restricted too and too many high hp cars hold ya back in the turns and blast the straights.

in a race or nasa event where passing is allowed anywhere (depending on your run group) i'd rather be faster in the corner.

unlike road america and vir, most tracks have rather short straights. if you nail the corner better than the next guy you have a better chance of passing immediately out of the corner even if he/she has more power. if you take a turn at 50mph and the other guy slows to 45mph and has more power - he's gonna catch ya - eventually. but, if your exit speed is higher, you have the advantage out and the other guy has to catch up, and maybe not before the next turn (again, most tracks have short straights) if you continue to do better in the corners you will slowly but surely outpace over time.

now take my speed example up a notch. accelerating from 45 or 50 is fairly easy at those speeds. but, if you take the turn at 100mph and the other guy does so at 95mph (generally but not always) the 5mph is harder to make up even fopr a higher hp car.

did i make this clear enough?? not sure i said it right.

That makes total sense, butt :D this bonehead still thinks that boils down to the corner being the secret to the higher straight away speed. Maybe it just the way we think that is backwards. :rotf:

kevin
12-18-2001, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR


This one seems a little strange to me. It seems like you can make up more time when you execute a perfect corner than you can just putting your foot to the floor. It takes much more skill to go quickly through a corner than a straightaway. :confused:

let me quote the book here.


"you are not just dealing with one particular coner, but rather a series of corners connected by straightaways. considering this, plus the fact that you will spend more time accelerating on a race track than you will just cornering, superior exit speed is far more important than cornering speed . it doesn't matter how fast you go thru the corner - if everyone passes you on the straight, you won't win a race. drive the corner in such a way as to maximize your straighaway speed."

the way i take this is speed on the straight is the winning key. but, you must take a corner properly to maintain the exit speed. most cars will try and pass on the exit in most races cause the cars are usually fairly mathed in the power department.

in open track events , passing only in the straights make the corner more important for a slower car.

this said, if you fail to make the corner equal to or better than the next guy. you'll play catch up on the straight.

i realize this might sound contridictory, but i don't know how else to explain waht i mean

cobrabitn
12-18-2001, 10:09 AM
Ummm, I think he is trying to imply that I will be passed in the corners and the straights when we go to Road Atlanta? is that right? :(

Cobra-R
12-18-2001, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by cobrabitn
Ummm, I think he is trying to imply that I will be passed in the corners and the straights when we go to Road Atlanta? is that right? :(

Tony,
He would never treat our beloved president with that small amount of respect. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

svt_coupe
12-18-2001, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by kevin


the way i take this is speed on the straight is the winning key. but, you must take a corner properly to maintain the exit speed. most cars will try and pass on the exit in most races cause the cars are usually fairly mathed in the power department.

in open track events , passing only in the straights make the corner more important for a slower car.

this said, if you fail to make the corner equal to or better than the next guy. you'll play catch up on the straight.


That's exactly how I think of it too. There are many factors that add up to "who will win", but I think the biggest factor is staightaway speed. Which, if you back it up, equates to preceding corner. So... yes, while the straightaway speed is more important, what gets you to the top speed? A maximum exit speed.

I think the statement simply says "races are won on straights". What he means is probably, "...because if you take the preceding corner correctly, you'll be fast on the straight. The faster car on the staights will win". This is true even on a dinky autocross course or a karting track.

Racing theory is a mindset that takes a while to get into. I'm not totally into it yet and don't know if can totally get there... I hope so, but MAN THERE'S A LOT TO LEARN!!

FWIW - There are corners on every track that can be thought of as a sacrifice or throwaway. While you want to maximize EVERY corner, you need to do it in a way that will grant you the highest exit speed on the corner that lead into straights. So, you might have to sacrifice taking Turn1 fast in order to setup for Turn3 correctly cause Turn3 leads to the back stretch, this way you'll be fast exiting T3... which will allow you to be fast on the straight... which will allow you to win races...

Analyze a track map. Seriously. Write down the longest staights in order. Now figure out the corner importance. Anyone have a track map they want to analyze? Post it and we'll figure it out...

STU
12-18-2001, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by svt_coupe

I think the statement simply says "races are won on straights". What he means is probably, "...because if you take the preceding corner correctly, you'll be fast on the straight. The faster car on the staights will win". This is true even on a dinky autocross course or a karting track.


I hope this will make you understand it easier.......
Let's break it down to just the corner for a second. There are different techniques for getting through the corner itself at the same speed. The law of physics says you can only handle so many lateral G's before your tires break loose. You can charge into the corner fast and deep braking at the last moment just enough to be able to make the corner (maybe passing someone in the process.. Problem is you are on the edge of tire traction at turn in so you won't be able to get back on the gas until about the track out point.
Now let's brake a little sooner and enter the corner slightly slower. Because you are entering the corner slower and not yet at the edge of traction you can get back on the gas a lot sooner (right after turn in) not reaching your limit of traction until about track out point. Now you have momentum on your side for the length of the straight away. Even though you both got through the corner itself at about the same speed because you have the momentum you win!

You have all seen this happen.....NASCAR=the guy breaks later than the other guy and passes him but pushes up the track because he was at the limit of traction at turn in. The other car going a little slower at turn in simply turns underneath him mashes the gas and drives back by because he had the straight away momentum on his side. You have all seen the same thing happen on roadcourses.
They are just saying choose the way through the corner that gives you the best exit speed.

Hope I did not confuse you more.

Cobra-R
12-18-2001, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by STU


I hope this will make you understand it easier.......
Let's break it down to just the corner for a second. There are different techniques for getting through the corner itself at the same speed. The law of physics says you can only handle so many lateral G's before your tires break loose. You can charge into the corner fast and deep braking at the last moment just enough to be able to make the corner (maybe passing someone in the process.. Problem is you are on the edge of tire traction at turn in so you won't be able to get back on the gas until about the track out point.
Now let's brake a little sooner and enter the corner slightly slower. Because you are entering the corner slower and not yet at the edge of traction you can get back on the gas a lot sooner (right after turn in) not reaching your limit of traction until about track out point. Now you have momentum on your side for the length of the straight away. Even though you both got through the corner itself at about the same speed because you have the momentum you win!

You have all seen this happen.....NASCAR=the guy breaks later than the other guy and passes him but pushes up the track because he was at the limit of traction at turn in. The other car going a little slower at turn in simply turns underneath him mashes the gas and drives back by because he had the straight away momentum on his side. You have all seen the same thing happen on roadcourses.
They are just saying choose the way through the corner that gives you the best exit speed.

Hope I did not confuse you more.

Those last two explainations make alot of sense to me now.

The other item I think Dean and I are missing is we are isolating this rule.

When we take this in conjuction with the "slow in fast out" corner rule it helps bring the whole thing together a little more also.

kevin
12-18-2001, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by cobrabitn
Ummm, I think he is trying to imply that I will be passed in the corners and the straights when we go to Road Atlanta? is that right? :(

not neccessarily:D

kevin
12-18-2001, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Cobra-R


Those last two explainations make alot of sense to me now.

The other item I think Dean and I are missing is we are isolating this rule.

When we take this in conjuction with the "slow in fast out" corner rule it helps bring the whole thing together a little more also.

that's were the thot process should be looking at all corners in descending priority (as mentioned above)

kevin
12-18-2001, 07:09 PM
and some people think racing isn't rocket science:eek: :D

97whitevert
12-19-2001, 06:33 PM
There is so much to learn.......Is there any way to get this down b4 I get to Rd. Atlanta??????


I already nervous........:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

kevin
12-19-2001, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by 97whitevert
There is so much to learn.......Is there any way to get this down b4 I get to Rd. Atlanta??????


I already nervous........:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

in a word. no.


you can read all ya want, watch all the videos. butt, until you start to do the things on the track - they won't really make sense.

as a first timer, the very basics tend to be info overload. generally, you can only incorparate the acedimic knowledge in building block style. however, with a weekend of instruction and plenty of verbal help from your pals, you can make great strides.

example, most beginners don't look in the rearview cause their so busy keeping the car on the track and trying to do ALL the things they think they should be doing RIGHT NOW.

don't worry it'll all fall into place over time.:thumbsup:

97whitevert
12-19-2001, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by kevin


in a word. no.


you can read all ya want, watch all the videos. butt, until you start to do the things on the track - they won't really make sense.

as a first timer, the very basics tend to be info overload. generally, you can only incorparate the acedimic knowledge in building block style. however, with a weekend of instruction and plenty of verbal help from your pals, you can make great strides.

example, most beginners don't look in the rearview cause their so busy keeping the car on the track and trying to do ALL the things they think they should be doing RIGHT NOW.

don't worry it'll all fall into place over time.:thumbsup:


OK, don't worry, I"LL WORRY!!!!!

but still looking forward, butterflies and all:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :bounce: :bounce:

kevin
12-19-2001, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by 97whitevert



OK, don't worry, I"LL WORRY!!!!!

but still looking forward, butterflies and all:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :bounce: :bounce:

healthy fear is a good thing!!!:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

97whitevert
12-19-2001, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by kevin


healthy fear is a good thing!!!:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:


healthy fear=respect:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Cobra-R
12-19-2001, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by kevin


healthy fear is a good thing!!!:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:


You getting a good healthy dose lately, Kevin???:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

kevin
12-19-2001, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by 97whitevert



healthy fear=respect:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

there ya go:thumbsup:

kevin
12-19-2001, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Cobra-R



You getting a good healthy dose lately, Kevin???:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

me no fear "games":D

Cobra-R
12-19-2001, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by kevin


me no fear "games":D

Good, then I hope you are enjoying it. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


created a little more "fun" for you today. :doubt: :doubt: :doubt: :doubt: :doubt:

kevin
12-19-2001, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by Cobra-R


Good, then I hope you are enjoying it. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


created a little more "fun" for you today. :doubt: :doubt: :doubt: :doubt: :doubt:


where????:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Cobra-R
12-20-2001, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by kevin



where????:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

oh, it isn't gona be that easy. Hey, the wait is the best part. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

kevin
12-20-2001, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by 97whitevert



OK, don't worry, I"LL WORRY!!!!!

but still looking forward, butterflies and all:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :bounce: :bounce:


lisa, let me quote something from the book on this subject.

"if anyone ever tells you they never have any fear in a race car, they either are lying or are driving nowhere near the limit. there's not a successful driver in the world who doesn't scare themselves every now and then. fear - or selfpresertvation - is the only thing that stops you from crashing every corner. if it's the kind of fear that makes you panic and freeze up, then that's not good. but if it's the kind that makes the adrenaline flow, your sense sharpen, and makes you realize if you go another tenth of a mile per hour faster you'll crash, then that's good."


also,
"usually, you are going much too fast to be scared at the moment. however, there are times when i realize after a corner just how close i was to crashing - and there's a little fear there, knowing i came oh-so-close to losing it. that usually means i was at or a little beyond the limit."

hope this helps


btw, i can atest to this more than once.


:thumbsup:

97whitevert
12-21-2001, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by kevin



lisa, let me quote something from the book on this subject.

"if anyone ever tells you they never have any fear in a race car, they either are lying or are driving nowhere near the limit. there's not a successful driver in the world who doesn't scare themselves every now and then. fear - or selfpresertvation - is the only thing that stops you from crashing every corner. if it's the kind of fear that makes you panic and freeze up, then that's not good. but if it's the kind that makes the adrenaline flow, your sense sharpen, and makes you realize if you go another tenth of a mile per hour faster you'll crash, then that's good."


also,
"usually, you are going much too fast to be scared at the moment. however, there are times when i realize after a corner just how close i was to crashing - and there's a little fear there, knowing i came oh-so-close to losing it. that usually means i was at or a little beyond the limit."

hope this helps


btw, i can atest to this more than once.


:thumbsup:

SIGH!!!!!!!

trying to take time and digest this.......

I know that it will take the tracktime to learn any of this.....

just hope I don't get TOO addicted...:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :bounce: :bounce:

kevin
12-21-2001, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by 97whitevert

just hope I don't get TOO addicted...:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :bounce: :bounce: [/B]

give up this thot.

you will:D

STU
12-22-2001, 10:18 AM
Lisa, could you wear a size 6 mens shoe? No I don't have a foot fettish. :D I have a pair of Nike pit/driving shoes that I messed up an order on and received the size 6. Wifes got me cleaning house. If you or anyone else can use them just let me know and I'll send them to you N/C.

Dave

97whitevert
12-22-2001, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by STU
Lisa, could you wear a size 6 mens shoe? No I don't have a foot fettish. :D I have a pair of Nike pit/driving shoes that I messed up an order on and received the size 6. Wifes got me cleaning house. If you or anyone else can use them just let me know and I'll send them to you N/C.

Dave


Actually, yes!! Cool Thanks!! I never turn down items... ya sure you don't want$??

i'll send my add.

STU
12-22-2001, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by 97whitevert



Actually, yes!! Cool Thanks!! I never turn down items... ya sure you don't want$??

i'll send my add.

Cool, just email me your address

97whitevert
12-22-2001, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by STU


Cool, just email me your address

OK I did

Let me know if you didn't get it..

thanks again!!!

STU
12-22-2001, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by 97whitevert


OK I did

Let me know if you didn't get it..

thanks again!!!

Lisa, I did not get your address. For some reason this site will not send me emails. I hope they figure out why.

send it to destuart@charter.net

97whitevert
12-23-2001, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by STU


Lisa, I did not get your address. For some reason this site will not send me emails. I hope they figure out why.

send it to destuart@charter.net


OK i tried it.....post me if it still didn't work...:thumbsup:

STU
12-24-2001, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by 97whitevert



OK i tried it.....post me if it still didn't work.

Got it... :thumbsup: Thanks

tgentry
12-26-2001, 01:24 PM
I know I'm coming in a little late on the discussion but here goes...

On corners vs. straights I have two experiences to share. I used to open track a modified Triumph TR-6, 2200 lb., 140 hp. This gave me a very clear understanding of how to use the turns to gain speed on the straights. I can remember a ceratin 5.0 Mustang. This guy would tip toe through the turns then nail it on the straights. I was able to hang back a little, nail the turn and before he even knew what happened I was already beside him and pulling away.

Many years ago, I got a chance to talk at length with Willy T. Ribbs at Road America. One thing he mentioned that really got me thinking was that they GAINED some speed on the main straight by ADDING a little wing. This struck me as just opposite of what I understood, but he explained that it let him exit the turn faster therefore helping his straight speed.

Straight line speed is the goal, but the corners are one of the tools to get there.
:thumbsup:

tgentry
12-26-2001, 01:26 PM
Fear? To quote a shirt that Christa gave me:
"SOME FEAR, 'cause if you've never been scared (just a little) you're not going as fast as you could"

winddy1
01-16-2002, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by 98banana



I am a firm believer in getting the corners right first. I've caught up with way too many cars, including vipers, because my car can take the corners. They would take off and leave me in the straights only because of sheer HP, but I would catch up in the next braking zone and stay with them in the curves.


--------------------


I know I'm a little behind on this one.
hey, what can I say?

However,
Tim and I agree with Tom 150% -

corners - get them right.

Hey - the Cobra R took off on me in the straights right?

But, why the heck was I catching up with him in the corners?

Cuz he wasn't hitting them correctly. I ofcourse, had a slower car.

But I was catching up with him anyway ...

cuz I was learning how to take the corners correctly !!
(Thanks to Jeff) :bounce:

winddy1
01-16-2002, 04:43 PM
posted by Big Daddy


We could go over to the Secrets of Driving fast thread and talk about this there but corner exit speed is the key to having fast laps! AND I agree that practice is what I need. I THOUGHT I could drive fast on curves given where I live but man what you learn doing it on a track is another ballgame!

GIVE ME THE TWISTIES!!

--------------

OK, BD. You there?

Anyway -
I agree.

I used to get the twisties too -

But after going to Gingerman - which has allot of turns ..


I am hooked ..
I mean hooked !!

I can't get enough of it.

I am very cautious in traffic ..

however, if I have an open road ..

nobody around ...

I will practice my turn in, my apex, turn out ..

speed, etc. etc.

Tim and I search for cloverleafs - with nobody on them.

Yes - the track presents a much more difficult pattern.

However - it's right there for you. All you have to do is take it!! We don't have to worry about the speed limits - or the road laws.

It is so much fun - it's kind of like a "high" --

very addictive !!:bounce: :bounce:

I have allot to learn -
I need practice.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

too bad it's snowing out today ... :(

winddy1
01-16-2002, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by tgentry
I.

Straight line speed is the goal, but the corners are one of the tools to get there.
:thumbsup:






-----------

Nice to see you on the forum Tom !! :thumbsup:


I agree - the corners, the turns, the curves, whatever you wanna call them ..

most anyone can figure out basically how to go fast on a straight .. (imho)

however, put it together with the turns/curves -

Now that's called driving on the edge !! :thumbsup: :bounce:

winddy1
01-16-2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by tgentry
Fear? To quote a shirt that Christa gave me:
"SOME FEAR, 'cause if you've never been scared (just a little) you're not going as fast as you could"


---------------


yup -

FEAR.

I definitely had it.

And, I know I will have it at my upcoming events ...

but, I'm realizing that fear is important - not a lot.
If you don't have any fear you either:

Like Tom says aren't driving fast enough.

Or: your crazy ... and your gonna wreck your car ...

Fear can work for you and against you. You can't live without it - but you don't want to have too much of it to prevent you from doing what it is your trying to achieve.

Thanks to Jeff Lacina at Gingerman -

now I can use my "fear" to "help" me !! :bounce: :bounce:

Big Daddy
01-16-2002, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by winddy1
posted by Big Daddy


We could go over to the Secrets of Driving fast thread and talk about this there but corner exit speed is the key to having fast laps! AND I agree that practice is what I need. I THOUGHT I could drive fast on curves given where I live but man what you learn doing it on a track is another ballgame!

GIVE ME THE TWISTIES!!

--------------

OK, BD. You there?

Anyway -
I agree.

I used to get the twisties too -

But after going to Gingerman - which has allot of turns ..


I am hooked ..
I mean hooked !!

I can't get enough of it.

I am very cautious in traffic ..

however, if I have an open road ..

nobody around ...

I will practice my turn in, my apex, turn out ..

speed, etc. etc.

Tim and I search for cloverleafs - with nobody on them.

Yes - the track presents a much more difficult pattern.

However - it's right there for you. All you have to do is take it!! We don't have to worry about the speed limits - or the road laws.

It is so much fun - it's kind of like a "high" --

very addictive !!:bounce: :bounce:

I have allot to learn -
I need practice.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

too bad it's snowing out today ... :(

Yes, I'm here but I'm about to leave the client site so I'll be down the rest of the night. I don't have to search for empty roads that have lots of turns!! I live in the curviest road part of the country. :D :D Only problem is you can never be quiet sure there won't be a vehicle coming the other way (lots of blind curves!) SO I don't go as fast as I could if I used both lanes! :D ;) I am really hooked after one session at Indy last year. I'm looking to make 8 events this year and get my competitive license for next year! :D WHOOO HOOOO! :D see ya tomorrow! BYE

winddy1
01-16-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Big Daddy


I don't have to search for empty roads that have lots of turns!! I live in the curviest road part of the country. :D :D Only problem is you can never be quiet sure there won't be a vehicle coming the other way (lots of blind curves!) SO I don't go as fast as I could if I used both lanes! :D ;) I am really hooked after one session at Indy last year. I'm looking to make 8 events this year and get my competitive license for next year! :D WHOOO HOOOO! :D see ya tomorrow! BYE


------------------


I'm jealous - I gotta admit.

We have to search for empty roads with a magnifying glass - they are hard to find.

Curves? We got em, but you can see what's around the bend, and theres usually someone in the way anyway ..

but - we find 'em.

There's some straight west of here -

You've gotta head away from the city

Take care and have fun!

oh,
and don't go any faster than I would ya hear?

:bounce: :D

tgentry
01-17-2002, 12:04 AM
Bonny go west. Not far, just get out of the 'burbs. You'll find far less traffic, plenty of country roads. My Chicago friends tell me it's a whole different world out here. Perfect for my other bad habit, cycling too.

Is that Blackhawk Farms I hear calling? :burnout:

Cobra-R
01-17-2002, 08:34 AM
Tom,
Is that you signed up for Road America in April with the 96 Cobra in the #62 spot? Looking forward to finally meeting you if it is. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Are you planning on going to Atlanta also?

tgentry
01-17-2002, 08:48 AM
Yes, I'm #62 at Road America in April. I think you and I were both there last fall for the Shelby Northwoods but didn't really meet. I was paddocked with another group, and between my car troubles (brakes) Friday, a couple of friends crashing Saturday and rain on Sunday, I just wasn't being as social as I normally would have.

See you in April!

kevin
10-01-2002, 07:14 AM
as some of you know i'm not neccessarily a proponent of a late apex.

i've always said the main reason this is taught by instructors is because it is almost always the "safe" way around a turn. it gives one far more track in case there's trouble and it usually means a somewhat slower speed thru the turn itself. as some of you have noticed when following me, i do take "some" turns as an earlier apex than most others.

what i'm about to print is written by carroll smith in his book "drive to win". i do beleive that newbies need to be taught the late apex till they get further experience. notice he has two reasons for the late apex and 5 downside reasons for the late apex.

i simply pass this on for informational purposes only and do not suggest that newer drivers on track try it till more seasoned.

kevin
10-01-2002, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by kevin
as some of you know i'm not neccessarily a proponent of a late apex.

i've always said the main reason this is taught by instructors is because it is almost always the "safe" way around a turn. it gives one far more track in case there's trouble and it usually means a somewhat slower speed thru the turn itself. as some of you have noticed when following me, i do take "some" turns as an earlier apex than most others.

what i'm about to print is written by carroll smith in his book "drive to win". i do beleive that newbies need to be taught the late apex till they get further experience. notice he has two reasons for the late apex and 5 downside reasons for the late apex.

i simply pass this on for informational purposes only and do not suggest that newer drivers on track try it till more seasoned.

the late apex: 1. allows you to increase the exit radius which, in turn, lets you put the power down geographically early in the corner. this increases corner exit speed which is a good thing.

2. gives you a bigger insurance policy at the corner exit. this is also a good thing, especially when you are learninng the race track, driving on unfamiliar or public roads or when the car is less than predictable.

kevin
10-01-2002, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by kevin
as some of you know i'm not neccessarily a proponent of a late apex.

i've always said the main reason this is taught by instructors is because it is almost always the "safe" way around a turn. it gives one far more track in case there's trouble and it usually means a somewhat slower speed thru the turn itself. as some of you have noticed when following me, i do take "some" turns as an earlier apex than most others.

what i'm about to print is written by carroll smith in his book "drive to win". i do beleive that newbies need to be taught the late apex till they get further experience. notice he has two reasons for the late apex and 5 downside reasons for the late apex.

i simply pass this on for informational purposes only and do not suggest that newer drivers on track try it till more seasoned.

the downsides to the late apex: 1. the car must cover a slightly greater linear distance.

2. the turn must be more abrupt and the radius of curveature from turn in to apex will be less.

3. because of 2 you will be slower in phase 2 (the slowest part - from turn in to the point where making the chosen apex is a certainty) and cannot carry as much speed thru the corner.

4. the wide entry leaves the door open (racing folks), making late apexes dodgy at best when you are trying to hold an aggressive opponent at bay. (my comment here - open trackers tend to learn the "fast" or "perfect" line and then get themselves and others in trouble when being passed in a turn - i.e. accidents).

5. it looks as if late apexes allow later braking. unfortunately this is largely a misconception. while the car is travelling in a straight line for a longer time, the slower phase 2 of the corner dictates that the braking point will be pretty much the same.

also, in another part of his book, it depends on the charicteristics of your car. another pet peave of mine, instructors who teach you to drive their car while using your car. and i mean no offense to the instructors out there.

Dean95CobraR
10-01-2002, 07:43 AM
Are you saying that an early apex is faster than a late apex?:doubt:

I can understand the one point of being an easy target during a race situation but one of the points made quite awhile ago was that the key to a greater straightaway speed was getting through the corner leading to that straight. Isn't the key to getting better straightaway speed is getting on the gas sooner? A early apex doesn't seem the way to do it.

When you early apex, it seems like you are really pinching the car trying to make it turn at turnout. I guess I'm confused when a early apex is needed besides in race conditions.

kevin
10-01-2002, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
Are you saying that an early apex is faster than a late apex?:doubt:

I can understand the one point of being an easy target during a race situation but one of the points made quite awhile ago was that the key to a greater straightaway speed was getting through the corner leading to that straight. Isn't the key to getting better straightaway speed is getting on the gas sooner? A early apex doesn't seem the way to do it.

When you early apex, it seems like you are really pinching the car trying to make it turn at turnout. I guess I'm confused when a early apex is needed besides in race conditions.

carroll points out that the early apex is more effective in high speed turns, but is still effective in low and medium speed turns. high speed turns keeps your speed up all the way thru vs more slowing in the straight line before turning. also in the lower speed turns you're covering less distance.

also, as i mentioned, it depends on the characteristcs of YOUR car. if the turn is slow enough and/or you have power to spare after the turn, you can get thru the turn faster by early apex and then use the spare power at the out portion of the turn.

kevin
10-01-2002, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
Are you saying that an early apex is faster than a late apex?:doubt:

I can understand the one point of being an easy target during a race situation but one of the points made quite awhile ago was that the key to a greater straightaway speed was getting through the corner leading to that straight. Isn't the key to getting better straightaway speed is getting on the gas sooner? A early apex doesn't seem the way to do it.

When you early apex, it seems like you are really pinching the car trying to make it turn at turnout. I guess I'm confused when a early apex is needed besides in race conditions.

also, carroll suggests that the reason this may be hard to believe is that everyone is taught the late apex and therefore the concept will be difficult to see right off the bat. if two cars are identical the earlier apex will be faster.

kevin
10-01-2002, 08:17 AM
carroll breaks a turn down into 4 phases. he suggests you look at the overall speed thru a turn. hence, the late apex "abrupt" turn actually is a slower "phase 2" than an ealy apex. while you are correct in the straight away speed coming out of a turn, he's saying that you can carry more speed into a turn with the early apex. but remember, it's not all turns but he says most turns.

he even uses the carosel at ra as an example

tgentry
10-01-2002, 09:23 AM
Who was it that said:

"Apex late, as early as possible."

Is that what you're talking about?

kevin
10-01-2002, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by tgentry
Who was it that said:

"Apex late, as early as possible."

Is that what you're talking about?

i think that probably says it pretty well