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View Full Version : Need Help - Have Video of Car Running Very Much Bad!


SuperG
06-03-2006, 09:23 PM
While driving down the road, suddenly and without warning the engine began sputtering. I discovered the car accelerates and decellerates without too much sputter, however at constant RPM, such as idle or driving at constant speed, it really bangs around. In fact, at home, with the hood up, the engine actually rocks quite a bit from left to right and black smoke is coming out of the tailpipes. Possible motor mount?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmWlft0tBDQ

Send Help!

SNAKEYE
06-04-2006, 06:28 AM
While driving down the road, suddenly and without warning the engine began sputtering. I discovered the car accelerates and decellerates without too much sputter, however at constant RPM, such as idle or driving at constant speed, it really bangs around. In fact, at home, with the hood up, the engine actually rocks quite a bit from left to right and black smoke is coming out of the tailpipes. Possible motor mount?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmWlft0tBDQ

Send Help!Nasty video.
Check that all of the air intake ducting is in it proper place. I had a couple of couplings inbetween the blower and the throttle body pop apart. Messed up everything. Had to drill thru the clamp straps into the plastic duct and the metal snout of the TB inlet to install a self-tapping screw to keep the couplings from slipping off.

SuperG
06-04-2006, 08:22 AM
Nasty video.
Check that all of the air intake ducting is in it proper place. I had a couple of couplings inbetween the blower and the throttle body pop apart. Messed up everything. Had to drill thru the clamp straps into the plastic duct and the metal snout of the TB inlet to install a self-tapping screw to keep the couplings from slipping off.
I briefly looked those over last night, as I also have experienced that...weird how that can cause so much trouble! So far so good, but need to do some more checking this morning...thanks!

ausie
06-04-2006, 12:53 PM
That is nasty. :eek: The black smoke may be an indication that the A/F is on the rich side. Does this occur when the motor is cold? Also, there could be issues with the IAC valve or boost bypass surging which may require cleaning as well as the throttle plate. I know for a fact that a faulty PCV valve could also cause the rough idle and creates some erratic pulsations when driving (that would be assuming you do not have breathers on both valve covers). It could also be a lag in the O2 sensors, do you still have cats? Running too rich will foul up the cats as well as cause a lag or slow response to the O2 sensors over time. This may also lead to sticking EGR valve which will also create a similar modulation in the motor as well as lead to a dirty throttle plate. My guess would be to have the tune checked to make sure there is no issue with the A/F curve. How long or how many miles are on the plugs? I would at least check them for carbon build up. My best guess still points at the IAC valve since that can be a culprit while cruising and idle issues and if the motor is rotating within the range and not stalling the check engine light and codes will not appear. Before taking on the expense of having the tune checked, I would at least inspect the throttle plate for carbon build up as well as the IAC valve. I typically clean mine every oil change as well as inspect the air filter. Definately a vacuum leak or seaping on the intake plumbing will cause the same issue just what Snakeye said.

SuperG
06-04-2006, 01:34 PM
Aussie...congrats...it looks like you are pretty close. I removed 4 of the plugs so far...they are covered in carbon and one of them (closest to the driver) has no indication of sparking and there appears to be oil. The plugs are roughly 1500 miles old.

So I then removed the intake tube (discharge side of the blower) in order to make it easier to check those plugs as well...there is oil INSIDE the blower tubing! I checked the oil level the other day and it was a tad low...it is not registering on the stick now!

I am pausing for the rest of the day, but will remove the blower and send it back to Vortech, then clean everything else.

Thanks guys! What a bunch of work this will be!!

ausie
06-04-2006, 10:02 PM
I sure hope the source of oil is not from the blower. Typically it will enter throught the PCV line as well as the breather line. Since the type of blower you have places more pressure on the intake side of the throttle plate, my guess is you are getting considerable amounts of pressure into the valve covers. The parasitic vacuum of the PCV line will tend to inhail oil since it is practically sprayed everywhere from the cams and valve train under the valve cover. You can do one of two things, 1. remove the PCV system all together (block of the PCV port with a rubber boot plug and use a clamp to hold it into place so it does not get blown off and use breathers on both valve covers. There is also a dual port breather catch can that can be used in place of two filter breathers http://performanceunlimited.com/cobravalley_drivetrain/breathertanks.html (only be interested in the remote breather tank, do not bother with the ones that fit into the valve covers from this site since they will not fit our cars, they are basically for older styled valve covers).
2. you could install an air/oil separator to trap oil from entering the intake plenum.

Sooner or later due to the carbon build up on the plugs and pistons will create detonation since the effective compression ratio will increase as well as the carbon creating hot spots. Isopropal alcohol mixed with water and sprayed directly into the throttle body from a spray bottle will steam clean the combustion chamber (found this trick out on an aviation site as well as from a BMW forum) or there is seafoam to do the same thing but that is basically just fuel distillates.

Another thing that comes to mind, on the blower application if there is a breather line going from the intake tube to the passenger side valve cover, if for any reason there is excessive pressure in the valve cover, that pressure will push the oil past the rings. For some reason I doubt there is a breather line connected to the high pressure side of the blower since it should be on the plumbing connected to the air filter. Since you found oil in the intake tract, it must be blowing into the blower from the passenger valve cover. Perhaps an air/oil separator would benenfit that line as well as the PCV line if you wish to use one.

SuperG
06-05-2006, 07:37 AM
Wow...it would be nice if it was NOT the blower! Then I will tackle the ideas of the PCV and the air/oil separators. So, more reading for me!

By the way, the "THEFT" light was flashing on and off while puttering the car home. Any ideas as to what that was all about?

ausie
06-06-2006, 07:09 AM
If you have a chip plugged into the ECU that may cause the issue of the theft circuit. It may be your key or transciever in the ignition that may be faulty. Try using the spare key if you have it. For some reason or another the chips in the keys go bad after a while and if they get dropped that may cause issues too. It is possible that the carbon build up on the plugs is the only cause for the rough idle or steady state opreation but since you mentioned it if there was a glitch in the theft circuit it would probably cut the engine out. If the electronic ignition has burned up its noise filter (due to a bad solder joint on the circuit board or a damage component) the spikes from the ignition may may cause issues to the ECU as well as other electronics. Are any of the guages jumping around other than the tachometer? It could be possible that one or both coil packs need to be replaced. At this point it becomes alot of guess work and will become expensive once you start replaceing parts that may not be the cause. Have you tried to scan for any codes? That would at least let you rule out any of the possible issues. The easy part may be just replacing the plugs and see if that cures the issue on the rough idle. The theft light may be flashing if the motor is cutting out. I wonder if the old school type timming light could be used to indicate if a coil is shot (connect the clamp on one of the spark plug wires and validate the flash on the serpentine belt, if it seems to be okay check the next plug wire and so on.) At least that way you may be able to tell if they are all firing properly.
For starters, if it seems that it is just a carbon issue, seafoam should clean the combustion chambers up if used throught the PCV line. I would probably recommend changing the oil after using it as well as the sparkplugs. Throttle body cleaner will not do much even if you spray it down the plug hole. With my 01 I have done just about every thing except for the seafoam. Hope you get the issue resolved.

ausie
06-06-2006, 07:11 AM
If you have a chip plugged into the ECU that may cause the issue of the theft circuit. It may be your key or transciever in the ignition that may be faulty. Try using the spare key if you have it. For some reason or another the chips in the keys go bad after a while and if they get dropped that may cause issues too. It is possible that the carbon build up on the plugs is the only cause for the rough idle or steady state opreation but since you mentioned it if there was a glitch in the theft circuit it would probably cut the engine out. If the electronic ignition has burned up its noise filter (due to a bad solder joint on the circuit board or a damage component) the spikes from the ignition may may cause issues to the ECU as well as other electronics. Are any of the guages jumping around other than the tachometer? It could be possible that one or both coil packs need to be replaced. At this point it becomes alot of guess work and will become expensive once you start replaceing parts that may not be the cause. Have you tried to scan for any codes? That would at least let you rule out any of the possible issues. The easy part may be just replacing the plugs and see if that cures the issue on the rough idle. The theft light may be flashing if the motor is cutting out. I wonder if the old school type timming light could be used to indicate if a coil is shot (connect the clamp on one of the spark plug wires and validate the flash on the serpentine belt, if it seems to be okay check the next plug wire and so on.) At least that way you may be able to tell if they are all firing properly.
For starters, if it seems that it is just a carbon issue, seafoam should clean the combustion chambers up if used throught the PCV line. I would probably recommend changing the oil after using it as well as the sparkplugs. Throttle body cleaner will not do much even if you spray it down the plug hole. With my 01 I have done just about every thing except for the seafoam. Hope you get the issue resolved.

ausie
06-06-2006, 07:13 AM
oops, posted twice :rolleyes:

SuperG
06-06-2006, 07:18 AM
oops, posted twice :rolleyes:
Ha! For a minute there I thought you had even more! Thanks for the great help!

smashedheadcat
06-12-2006, 10:12 PM
It definately looks to me like a leak (big leak) between the blower discharge and the throttle body. It looks like metered air is escaping somewhere before the intake. The insane rich condition probably fouled the plugs out so it just got worse with time.

SuperG
06-13-2006, 07:50 AM
It definately looks to me like a leak (big leak) between the blower discharge and the throttle body. It looks like metered air is escaping somewhere before the intake. The insane rich condition probably fouled the plugs out so it just got worse with time.
Yeah, I am leaning toward a catastrphic failure of the blower seals...

ausie
06-14-2006, 05:52 AM
sorry to hear of the misfortune. :( At least you know what is going on now. I took a look at the Vortec web site and it appears that they have a rebuild program. If you still have a warranty on it that would probably help. Also there are installation procedures as well as operating manuals for download in case you lost or misplaced yours.

SuperG
06-14-2006, 07:54 AM
sorry to hear of the misfortune. :( At least you know what is going on now. I took a look at the Vortec web site and it appears that they have a rebuild program. If you still have a warranty on it that would probably help. Also there are installation procedures as well as operating manuals for download in case you lost or misplaced yours.
The blower was installed in May of last year and rebuilt this past January under warranty, so I expect it will be covered once again. So the trick now is to find out why the seals failed so early...

Firme
06-14-2006, 11:56 AM
Gary, keep us posted.

BTW, did that CD help any :D

SuperG
08-13-2006, 07:00 PM
Just an update...first, Edmond, the CD has been very helpful. Turns out the more you know about the car, the easier it is to find what you are looking for!

Second, Eric, in another post you asked if I found any metal in the oil...Nope, not one particle. I tried both a magnet and a filter. However, Vortech claims they found metal particles in the supercharger, therefore, I have no idea how that can be possible.

Finally, I have put everything back together. Remember the video I made showing how the engine idles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmWlft0tBDQ), it still idles exactly the same way.

So, I tried seafoam using 1/3 the volume through the PCV line into the intake, let it sit for 30 minutes and then ran the engine, both idle plus a sprited drive. I should have brought the camcorder so you could hear how the engine ran. At acceleration and deceleration the engine ran fine. At constant RPM the engine sputtered horribly.

So I checked the codes (nothing - might be since the battery was unplugged for so long and the car has not run long enough), cleaned the MAF, cleaned the EGR (really yucky looking but still works from my own vacuum test), IAC was clean. I also replaced the PCV valve and cleaned the various tubing from the valve covers.

I am currently soaking the intake with seafoam again. Once I run the engine a little, I will disconnect the MAF in hopes the computer uses the default fuel curves, then I will disconnect the IAC. Earlier today, I unplugged each plug wire from the coil and noticed no difference.

My underlying belief is too much fuel is being delivered, but I don't know why. I'll let you know the results of tonight's tests...

ausie
08-14-2006, 07:04 AM
When was the last time you inspected the spark plugs? Probably not the issue but at least look at them if you have not done so yet. Misfire should have been detected by the ECU even when you removed the plug wires from the coil. Disconnecting the MAF or IAC would also generate a fault and trigger the check engine light. Just a thought, the plug in chip (or tune) may be ignoring the faults but not 100% positive on that.

I sort of wonder if it is a timming issue. If it was related to fuel ratio, the motor would bog down when attempting to accelerate (only if in excess though).

SuperG
08-14-2006, 07:19 AM
Upon inspection of the spark plugs, there was no indication of abnormal wear except a very light, thin black coating that did not come off with carb cleaner. While idling the car, I removed one plug wire at a time from each coil pack. The idle never changed. Why is that? Is it possible that I am witnessing detonation? I doubt I am witnessing pre-ignition since that usually occurs at higher torque and at higher temperatures.


Another test I will try is a compression and a leakdown test.

ausie
08-15-2006, 07:23 AM
:retard: oops, I already asked the plug question already. I have had issues with plug fouling with my 2001 before and was also pinging and on occasion the detonation. I know pinging and detonation are the same thing to some degree but I consider detonation is the catastrophic wave front colliding in such a manner that it literally stops the motor from rotating (feels like hitting a brick wall when you are moving at WOT). I think pre-ignition is also the same thing but related to hot spots in the combustion chamber (carbon deposits, overheated valve, too hot of a plug).

Come to think of it, my Explorer (even though it is a v6) suddenly started running the exact same way. What had happened, I lost a cylinder due to a squirrel. Basically one of the fuel injector wires was chewed through. I doubt that you had rodents in your motor, but it is possible you have a fouling injector. When you pulled the wires from the coil pack(s) did you check for spark at the coil? (may be hard to see with the boot as it is) Your check engine light should have come on if it is the coil pack, injector or missfire. Actually pulling a plug wire while the motor is running should make it worse unless the one you pulled is the cause. It is possible that one of the electrical connections to one or more of the injectors has become loose or corroded. Also, after so many years of torment, I had to replace the O2 sensors (was not much of a big deal since there were only 3) but it ran like a champ after that (result of check engine light and code for 02 sensor).
A dull Black powdery film on the plugs typically is an indication of running rich. If they looked wet and greasy that would be oil fouling. It is probable that what is occuring is detonation if your motor is equipt with knock sensors (not sure when they were added to the 4.6L, I know they were present on the 01 which may supplied the brick wall effect, but they are not present on the 04 since the supercharger does create vibrations). If you have the knock sensors one of them may have become over sensitive or loose which may effect timming, fuel or ignition if it is getting an inaccurate signal. Just a suggestion since I am not sure if your motor has them or not.

I would definately check all the fuses, especially if there is any aftermarket components that operate on their own fuse. Not sure if you stated if you have a chip (I think you did). If so, can it be removed without harm and see if the idle changes back to normal with the stock tune? (not sure what to expect since you have forced induction and may not be a good idea) It is possible that components that mount between the ECU and the wire harness may cause issues or supress generation of error codes since the sensor management may be masked by the chip circuitry. Since you have disconnected one or all of the plug wires from the coil packs, there should be a pending code stored in the ECU relating to misfire.

SuperG
08-15-2006, 10:28 AM
It is true, I should read the codes again...by now there should be some.

And yes, there is a Superchip, whch can be removed, so that is an idea and a simple task. Otherwise, my plan is to replace the O2 sensors first, then the plugs, then the wires...Of course, I will also inspect the wires and vacuum hoses (again).

I wonder if the TPS could have anything to do with this?