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View Full Version : Negative camber solid rear axle??? YES


jimmysidecarr
08-12-2006, 12:19 PM
Yes this is race car stuff... race cars that turn... I'm not recommending this for a street car. It did make me think though...

THINGS THAT MAKE YOU GO.... HMMMMmmmmm :doubt:

I thought I would post a little tech in case anyone thought that negative camber on a solid rear 8.8 Mustang housing was.... LUNATIC FRINGE. It's not, in fact it's pretty common and fairly easy to do.
1/2 a degree is the max according to most governing bodies, but it seems that depending on tire selection... that is also the upper limit for the balance between edge wear and handling improvement.

Most guys run an aftermarket 28 spline axle, unless they are running very near zero neg camber. Mosers axles are mentioned and it is also mentioned that they are supposedly 30% stronger than stock.(cough... not WEAKER)

I thought it was pretty interesting stuff.

http://forums.corner-carvers.com/showthread.php?p=2957

http://forums.corner-carvers.com/showthread.php?t=21256

http://forums.corner-carvers.com/showthread.php?t=917

Admiral
08-12-2006, 12:39 PM
I was gonna do this but decided to check the static camber on my 8.8 prior to going through the effort. Glad I did. I had 0.30 degrees negative on one side, 0.40 degrees negative on the other. Since our sanctioning body limits us to 0.50 degrees negative camber as the upper limit, taking the axle out and doing all the work hardly seemed worth it. YMMV

jimmysidecarr
08-12-2006, 02:27 PM
I was gonna do this but decided to check the static camber on my 8.8 prior to going through the effort. Glad I did. I had 0.30 degrees negative on one side, 0.40 degrees negative on the other. Since our sanctioning body limits us to 0.50 degrees negative camber as the upper limit, taking the axle out and doing all the work hardly seemed worth it. YMMV

Excellent info!!! Thanks Mike!!! :thumbsup:

I was wondering what some of the stock housings out there... were showing for camber and toe. I was just going to post up that even on a street/open track car it would likely be worth checking, and I saw your post, :thumbsup:

Some of the older cars have had some axle tube to center casting fitment issues develop over time ... while others could very well have been OFF right from the factory.

Mike do you mind sharing how you went about checking the rear alignment in your case??

97CasperCobra
08-12-2006, 03:37 PM
Most guys run an aftermarket 28 spline axle. Moslers axles are mentioned and it is also mentioned that they are supposedly 30% stronger than stock.(cough... not WEAKER)

:cool:

thanks for the info Jimmy!!! :thumbsup:

Admiral
08-12-2006, 03:42 PM
Excellent info!!! Thanks Mike!!! :thumbsup:

I was wondering what some of the stock housings out there... were showing for camber and toe. I was just going to post up that even on a street/open track car it would likely be worth checking, and I saw your post, :thumbsup:

Some of the older cars have had some axle tube to center casting fitment issues develop over time ... while others could very well have been OFF right from the factory.

Mike do you mind sharing how you went about checking the rear alignment in your case??

I have a caster/camber guage and simply put it on each side at the wheel center while the car was sitting on the wheels. I figured if the floor wasn't level it didn't matter, I could still see the net effect based upon the results from each side. I think that is why there was probably some difference between the left and right but can't verify.

bluethunder
08-12-2006, 07:36 PM
Most guys run an aftermarket 28 spline axle, unless they are running very near zero neg camber. Moslers axles are mentioned and it is also mentioned that they are supposedly 30% stronger than stock.(cough... not WEAKER)



As far as strength goes on 28 spline, I'd say Strange, and MW make a quality Axle, as for Moser, Their 28 Splines are junk ( I've run them too!!!) Now if they won't hold up to a set of sticky tires and a couple 3-4 K Launchs, What makes you think they'll hold up to several Hundred sticky tight turns. Now this is getting old.
My Orginal Question was Why someone would spend the Money on something they already have instead of upgrading other things they need to?
I'm not the only one to wonder this, I seem to be the only one that wants to ask it. Others may keep their mouth shut on the subject, well not me. I know it's not my car and I shouldn't care.
But Jimmy, If you are going to go and ONLY road race your car, Would you buy STOCK AFTERMARKET replacement axles for your cobra or upgrade such as most others have?



David Borden
Senior Member

Thanks again!

Rick, the track at the rear is probably off by .5 inch on the Spec site. We run the stock width rearend and axles with 5.95 inch BS 9" Cobra R rims. We are allowed to run 1/4 to 3/8" spacers in the rear though. That would increase it .5" to .75"

I already clearanced the brake brackets, so Im not rubbing/grinding anymore. I was just a bit freaked out at the amount of flex I was getting and was hoping to improve it.

One note... this happened before we changed to the 3L-PHB. Would the lower roll center of this setup affect the axle flexing at all? "grasping at straws here"

As far as axles go, Im just gonna stay with stock. Seems from most folks opinions I wont get a significant amount of flex or bending improvement from aftermarket axles like Moser's.

David

jimmysidecarr
08-13-2006, 02:09 AM
Let's suppose for a minute that a certain high mileage Cobra has had some rear axle bearings go bad and they have worn the surface of the axles where the bearings ride. Axle replacement will be necessary.

Mosers are available at a decent price. Stockers are not known to be an outstanding value. And I do not believe they are forged steel???

The flex issue you quoted Joe... ended up being hub flex. Something that 9" ends and a floater set up would have solved for that guys problem.

I like a little extra strength as much as the next guy... But I didn't and still don't see the need for 31 spline top shelf axles for this application.

I'm sorry you did not have good luck with your Moser axles Joe.

But there is a big difference in the loading of the axles due to the very different application, IE: they don't wind up like they do in drag racing... yea sure they flex... all flex some, but no where near what a 3K/4K launch will do. The flex and wind up are pretty minimal in the grand scheme of things.

The comment about them being inferior to stock is what really blew my mind... care to bring some tech on that???

Lately Ford has been having trouble just getting the heat treating right on the bearing surfaces(Town Car, Crown Vic, Grand Marquis recall)...

Your mileage may vary...

bluethunder
08-13-2006, 02:41 PM
Let's suppose for a minute that a certain high mileage Cobra has had some rear axle bearings go bad and they have worn the surface of the axles where the bearings ride. Axle replacement will be necessary.

Mosers are available at a decent price. Stockers are not known to be an outstanding value. And I do not believe they are forged steel???

The flex issue you quoted Joe... ended up being hub flex. Something that 9" ends and a floater set up would have solved for that guys problem.

I like a little extra strength as much as the next guy... But I didn't and still don't see the need for 31 spline top shelf axles for this application.

I'm sorry you did not have good luck with your Moser axles Joe.

But there is a big difference in the loading of the axles due to the very different application, IE: they don't wind up like they do in drag racing... yea sure they flex... all flex some, but no where near what a 3K/4K launch will do. The flex and wind up are pretty minimal in the grand scheme of things.

The comment about them being inferior to stock is what really blew my mind... care to bring some tech on that???

Lately Ford has been having trouble just getting the heat treating right on the bearing surfaces(Town Car, Crown Vic, Grand Marquis recall)...

Your mileage may vary...

Jimmy, Your Car as well as the newer Mustangs all have 31 Spline Axles. There is a reason for this, If not they would heave kept using 28 spline axles and carriers.
As For the Mosers being inferior, The 28 Spline axles in my experience have been known to flex and break, or even shear off the splines in the carrier. Not always due to Launching a Car. Now I do Drag Race Mostly, but when it comes to which parts will hold up and what to upgrade to, i do know a little more than research, I know first hand as I've most likely either Broken it or replaced it with something that doesn't break.
Now this whole thing started out as My Question as to why someone would put stock replacement axles in a car that is going to be Tracked ( Road or Drag, Doesn't matter...Still tracked) Now if Ford feels that newer 05-06 Stangs needed 31 spline axles and the 03-04 Cobra's Needed 31 spline, Then there is something to it! But for someone to spend the money on a new Carrier and axles and not upgrade to something bigger and better is beyond me. That is the whole point of modding a car, make it better.
Now Jimmy, in the same instance, You wouldn't put a stock Suspension if you had a choice on your car, or even a stock tune, Why??????? Because you know it wasn't what YOU would have wanted for what you are doing.

Now you are a great REsearcher of facts on the internet, AS for applying those on the track, That is another story. ( now I'm going to talk about Drag Racing) I know a ton of folks making more power than my old coupe did but still can't get it to run as fast as my old coupe down the 1320, Why????

They didn't do it for themselves, They relied on what someone else said or told them.

Now back to Road racing.....
I know I have just started back into this kind of racing, and I should say I did pretty good with a completely STOCK car and no power adder of any sort. Too bad the Factory control arm broke on me but thanks to Ford and their Warrenty, I got a new one, However, If I had to pay for it myself, I would have found a better upgrade for this item, Not bought a factory replacement.

Get where I'm going with this????????? :thumbsup:

jimmysidecarr
08-13-2006, 09:52 PM
Jimmy, Your Car as well as the newer Mustangs all have 31 Spline Axles. There is a reason for this, If not they would heave kept using 28 spline axles and carriers.
As For the Mosers being inferior, The 28 Spline axles in my experience have been known to flex and break, or even shear off the splines in the carrier. Not always due to Launching a Car. Really??? BS!!! When have they broken in a vehicle that was not drag raced??? Now I do Drag Race Mostly, but when it comes to which parts will hold up and what to upgrade to, i do know a little more than research, I know first hand as I've most likely either Broken it or replaced it with something that doesn't break. ]While drag racing or the street equivelent... no doubt in my mind. Now this whole thing started out as My Question as to why someone would put stock replacement axles in a car that is going to be Tracked ( Road or Drag, Doesn't matter...Still tracked)Actually Joe.... It does matter, the fact that you think it doesn't ...tells me that all that valuable hands on experience (that you are assuming I don't have)....has not really taught you all that much. Now if Ford feels that newer 05-06 Stangs needed 31 spline axles and the 03-04 Cobra's Needed 31 spline, Then there is something to it! But for someone to spend the money on a new Carrier and axles and not upgrade to something bigger and better is beyond me. That is the whole point of modding a car, make it better.
Now Jimmy, in the same instance, You wouldn't put a stock Suspension if you had a choice on your car, or even a stock tune, Why??????? Because you know it wasn't what YOU would have wanted for what you are doing.

Now you are a great REsearcher of facts on the internet, AS for applying those on the track, That is another story. ( now I'm going to talk about Drag Racing) I know a ton of folks making more power than my old coupe did but still can't get it to run as fast as my old coupe down the 1320, Why????

They didn't do it for themselves, They relied on what someone else said or told them.

Now back to Road racing.....
I know I have just started back into this kind of racing, and I should say I did pretty good with a completely STOCK car and no power adder of any sort. Too bad the Factory control arm broke on me but thanks to Ford and their Warrenty, I got a new one, However, If I had to pay for it myself, I would have found a better upgrade for this item, Not bought a factory replacement.

Get where I'm going with this????????? :thumbsup:


Yea.... I GET WHERE YOU ARE GOING WITH THIS...

I don't know jack..
I have no hands on experience with race cars,
I can only look up stuff on the INTERNET and then quote and spout off worthless crap that doesn't have any application to real life and therefore my opinions are worthless....

Oh I almost forgot....................AND YOU KNOW IT ALL!!!

Joe... You don't know what I've done as far as hands on goes. You assume incorrectly that I am an info geek only. There are a few people that know what I've done in the past... racing, crewing and building.
I don't talk about it very much. In fact I don't talk much at all.


"AS for applying those on the track, That is another story.

That almost comes across as a challenge... If we ever get to run in the same run goup... I guess we will see who can do what on the track.


If Mike's axles ever break, I'm going on record right here and now.... I'll pay to have them replaced with 31s!!

That's called putting my money where my mouth is. I guarantee they won't break.

97CasperCobra
08-14-2006, 12:16 AM
Go Fix your car, Grown ups are Dicussing something here!!!!!!!

Car is at Slater's now.....should be ready Tuesday. Thanks for playing....:p

Oh I almost forgot....................AND YOU KNOW IT ALL!!!

If we ever get to run in the same run goup... I guess we will see who can do what on the track.

If Mike's axles ever break, I'm going on record right here and now.... I'll pay to have them replaced with 31s!!

That's called putting my money where my mouth is. I guarantee they won't break.

I retract my previous comment(and delete it as well). This is getting good....:starwars:

and a promise to get 31s replaced for FREE!!!!
:thumbsup:

Admiral
08-16-2006, 02:50 PM
Guys, I know you both (briefly) and can't see the reason for all the angst. We all have different experiences/preferences/understandings of such topics, share yours and move on. No sense it turning into something beyond that.

Now, with that said, bring it to MSRH and proceed to whup up on my lowly CMC car so we can talk after the session with our hands over a cold beverage, mmkay??? :thumbsup:

I bet I scare someone in the braking zone at least once come November, it might be myself that gets the adrenaline shakes. :D

bluethunder
08-16-2006, 02:52 PM
Guys, I know you both (briefly) and can't see the reason for all the angst. We all have different experiences/preferences/understandings of such topics, share yours and move on. No sense it turning into something beyond that.

Now, with that said, bring it to MSRH and proceed to whup up on my lowly CMC car so we can talk after the session with our hands over a cold beverage, mmkay??? :thumbsup:

I bet I scare someone in the braking zone at least once come November, it might be myself that gets the adrenaline shakes. :D


Where is this car???????????? '66 289 Cobra

Admiral
08-16-2006, 02:57 PM
In the garage. Wanna see a pic?

http://www.bns-racing.com/66Cobra.htm

Sorry, I just couldn't resist posting. :cool:

bluethunder
08-16-2006, 02:58 PM
In the garage. Wanna see a pic?

http://www.bns-racing.com/66Cobra.htm

Sorry, I just couldn't resist posting. :cool:


Nice car, When is it going to MSRH?

Admiral
08-16-2006, 03:02 PM
Nevah. I'd cry big crocodile tears if I messed up that cheap fiberglass go-kart! Just for looks.

Besides, why run anything else but he CMC-heap-o-parts on the track?? :D