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View Full Version : What do you guys think about this head restraint?


Dean95CobraR
11-14-2002, 06:41 AM
http://www.gforceracinggear.com/whatsnew/whatsnew.html

I would like to see someone with it on and belted in the seat. Seems like it would do the job at a decent price.

STU
11-14-2002, 08:02 AM
Dean, from looking at the picture it looks like the seat belts would have to go down towards the floor to hold it in place. If the belts went straight back to a harness bar I am not sure how secure it would be. And if a shorter person was sitting in the seat? I think the Hutchins would be a better choice and cant be that much more than the $280 price tag on this one?

98banana
11-14-2002, 10:03 AM
That looks simple but effective. I wouldn't know though since I haven't stayed in a Holiday Inn Express for some time...

I've been putting some thought into it over the last few months though and I think I'm going for the Hans. From what I've read, it's the best thing out there and that's one place I'm not going to skimp. And, I can guarantee you that I'll have it on every time I hit the track for anything other than touring laps. And my encounter with the wall at RA has given me an even better appreciation for safety equipment.

And, you should never start a sentence with the word and.

Maybe we can get a group purchase going for a Hans Device...

EDIT: posted by our very own shuggybutt at Corner Carvers. Make sure you navigate to the link in the post... http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5124&highlight=hans

kevin
11-14-2002, 11:47 AM
dean, i can't tell from the photo and description how this works. but i would agree with dave that it appears you're harness would have to be in a downward anchored position, and i'm not sure that would be legal by some of the sanctioning bodies. again tho, it's hard to tell.

the hutchins device 1s $325 and usable in any car because it fits to the driver

kevin
11-14-2002, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by 98banana
That looks simple but effective. I wouldn't know though since I haven't stayed in a Holiday Inn Express for some time...

I've been putting some thought into it over the last few months though and I think I'm going for the Hans. From what I've read, it's the best thing out there and that's one place I'm not going to skimp. And, I can guarantee you that I'll have it on every time I hit the track for anything other than touring laps. And my encounter with the wall at RA has given me an even better appreciation for safety equipment.

And, you should never start a sentence with the word and.

Maybe we can get a group purchase going for a Hans Device...

EDIT: posted by our very own shuggybutt at Corner Carvers. Make sure you navigate to the link in the post... http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5124&highlight=hans

tom, the biggest problem i've heard on the hans is entry/exit to a car. also on the hutchins (which i do use) it seems to me from the cc conversation regarding "nuts" would not occur is the submarine belt is of proper length. just a tho. but glad to hear you'll be wearing something now

STU
11-14-2002, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by 98banana

And, you should never start a sentence with the word and.


If I ever decide to get published I'll remember that. But for an informal forum like this?....jeese :mad: :mad:

Don't tell me, no BUT's either:mad:

Dean95CobraR
11-14-2002, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by STU
Dean, from looking at the picture it looks like the seat belts would have to go down towards the floor to hold it in place. If the belts went straight back to a harness bar I am not sure how secure it would be. And if a shorter person was sitting in the seat? I think the Hutchins would be a better choice and cant be that much more than the $280 price tag on this one?


I had the same thoughts Dave. It's really hard to tell. Also, if the rear rod were not captured between you and the harness, it would still hit the harness when your head went forward at impact. The problem would be that it could possibly let your head move to far forward.

Dean95CobraR
11-14-2002, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by 98banana
That looks simple but effective. I wouldn't know though since I haven't stayed in a Holiday Inn Express for some time...

I've been putting some thought into it over the last few months though and I think I'm going for the Hans. From what I've read, it's the best thing out there and that's one place I'm not going to skimp. And, I can guarantee you that I'll have it on every time I hit the track for anything other than touring laps. And my encounter with the wall at RA has given me an even better appreciation for safety equipment.

And, you should never start a sentence with the word and.

Maybe we can get a group purchase going for a Hans Device...

EDIT: posted by our very own shuggybutt at Corner Carvers. Make sure you navigate to the link in the post... http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5124&highlight=hans


How much are the Hans devices and how would you get it sized for you?

Dean95CobraR
11-14-2002, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by kevin
dean, i can't tell from the photo and description how this works. but i would agree with dave that it appears you're harness would have to be in a downward anchored position, and i'm not sure that would be legal by some of the sanctioning bodies. again tho, it's hard to tell.

the hutchins device 1s $325 and usable in any car because it fits to the driver

According to this thread - http://forums.improvedtouring.com/it/Forum10/HTML/000535.html the Hutchins device is not provide good enough protection.

Dean95CobraR
11-14-2002, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by kevin
tom, the biggest problem i've heard on the hans is entry/exit to a car. also on the hutchins (which i do use) it seems to me from the cc conversation regarding "nuts" would not occur is the submarine belt is of proper length. just a tho. but glad to hear you'll be wearing something now

Oops, you already read it. :rolleyes:

Dean95CobraR
11-14-2002, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by STU
If I ever decide to get published I'll remember that. But for an informal forum like this?....jeese :mad: :mad:

Don't tell me, no BUT's either:mad:


LOL, he may have been talking about himself since he did the very same thing. :rotf:

98banana
11-14-2002, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by STU
If I ever decide to get published I'll remember that. But for an informal forum like this?....jeese :mad: :mad:

Don't tell me, no BUT's either:mad:

Wait a minute!!! That was a joke directed to me. I didn't even realize you had done that. I noticed I had done it 2 or 3 times so I made the joke.

Please don't think I was directing that towards you. I'm the last person to fault somebody on their posts!!!

98banana
11-14-2002, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
How much are the Hans devices and how would you get it sized for you?

I have no idea. I haven't made it to that part of the research yet. I have heard that the helmet has to be sent off, but that's all I know. And I don't even KNOW that... :D

98banana
11-14-2002, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by kevin
tom, the biggest problem i've heard on the hans is entry/exit to a car. also on the hutchins (which i do use) it seems to me from the cc conversation regarding "nuts" would not occur is the submarine belt is of proper length. just a tho. but glad to hear you'll be wearing something now

I'm not really worried about the "nuts" part too much. I've already got 4 kids...:eek:

STU
11-14-2002, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by 98banana
Wait a minute!!! That was a joke directed to me. I didn't even realize you had done that. I noticed I had done it 2 or 3 times so I made the joke.

Please don't think I was directing that towards you. I'm the last person to fault somebody on their posts!!!

Sorry Tom, sometimes with just print it is easy to mistake the senders intent.

And I sometimes jump to conclusions. ;)

98banana
11-14-2002, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by STU
Sorry Tom, sometimes with just print it is easy to mistake the senders intent.

And I sometimes jump to conclusions. ;)

No apology needed. When I went back and read the 2 posts together, I saw exactly where the mis-understanding came from. Totally understood.

On a side note... every time I catch myself putting and or but at the front of a sentence, I think of the movie, Finding Forrester. For anybody that hasn't seen it, it's like Good Will Hunting, but better.

kevin
11-14-2002, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
According to this thread - http://forums.improvedtouring.com/it/Forum10/HTML/000535.html the Hutchins device is not provide good enough protection.

dean, the "expert" saying no other device will work is the one that owns and promotes the hans device. i have an article from sports car magazine in a study that shows different.

kevin
11-14-2002, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by 98banana
Wait a minute!!! That was a joke directed to me. I didn't even realize you had done that. I noticed I had done it 2 or 3 times so I made the joke.

Please don't think I was directing that towards you. I'm the last person to fault somebody on their posts!!!

i'm hearing a bee gees tune right now:rotf:

kevin
11-14-2002, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
How much are the Hans devices and how would you get it sized for you?


from what i've read about $1,100 bucks and you need to send your helmet to them for fixing. don't know how long it takes tho

97whitevert
11-14-2002, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by kevin
i'm hearing a bee gees tune right now:rotf:
now THATS a scary thought......:eek: :eek: :rotf:

and WAIT.. that particular song is ont da tip of my tongue....


it will probably come to me about 3 am.... my usual time to wake up this week.....:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Dean95CobraR
11-15-2002, 06:41 AM
More information on the above system.

The new G-Force Racing Gear SRS-1 Supplemental Restraint System is a new product and should be available at G-Force dealers about the end of the year. It will only be supported on the new line of our Pro Force helmets (Pro Force Air, Pro Force Aero and Pro Force 1, along with any new SA-rated as they come out). It will not be supported on any other helmet from any manufacturer, including G-Force, as there is some question about voiding the Snell rating of any helmet that is not modified from the manufacturer. Yes, I know that helmets are modified for Hans and Hutchens installation. Check with your helmet manufacturer or Snell.

The main reasons G-Force is only supporting the SRS-1 on the Pro Force helmets is that the mounting points for the SRS-1 are reinforced at the factory when the helmet is built and is a complete system with the appropriate helmet. The Pro Force helmets are available now from your G-Force Racing Gear dealer and information is available on our website at www.gforce.com.

As far as I know, SCCA does not certify any safety equipment. They just specify the appropriate SFI or Snell rating. SFI or Snell does not currently test restraint systems such as these. This may change. I know the SRS-1 has been extensively tested, along with the Hans and Hutchens. The advantages to the SRS-1 are ease of use, cost and it works.

Howard Bennett
'89 Mustang LX 5.0
'88 Mazda RX7 SE Solo I #76
and I work at G-Force Racing Gear

98banana
11-15-2002, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
... The advantages to the SRS-1 are ease of use, cost and it works.


That sounds like Mr. Bennett posts at the Corral. LOL!

Is there any test data available for any of these systems? I'd like to see some comparisons.

Also, does the Hutchins or HANS do anything for lateral head movement? It doesn't look like the SRS-1 will do anything in that area except for cause your head to twist into the force.

COBRA #17
11-15-2002, 01:52 PM
Well I was going to stay ouy of this one but I CAN"T !!!

I have been doing some research and making some calls, BUT I AM BY FAR NO EXPERT ! I have talked to the guys at BSR ( hutchens maker) and have talked to the Hans people also but not as much. First off yes that article was written by the people at the Hans office so yes they are going to bash the other device.
I ordered a Hutchens to take to the track for the Summit event and the BSR people have offered to come to the track and answer questions and do a demonstration in Feb or Mar. They were in Detroit last week doing more testing. Trevor is the head eng. and Bob is a SCCA racer so they are pretty good to talk to.

One other fact you guys have wrong is you don't have to send your helmet to Hans anymore. You can mount your helmet hardware your self now. The club model is now $999. As far as voiding the snell or ansi I don't know??

Also I have been told by a couple people that in Justin Preistly's accident he was cut by the Hutchens helmet conectors. BSR says that that is not true " He was cut by his shoulder harness."

I have a video and some test papers from BSR that they sent me with my Hutchens . I asked them for some information with the device when I ordered it to have to show the guys at the track. They were very helpful and very easy to talk to. I haven't had a real good conversation with the Hans people. I would be glad to send you some info if you would be interested or try to answer some questions.

I have heard that there are several new units coming out but have no in formation on them yet. So if you have some info please send it to me hooverracing@aol.com

Finally be carefull what you read and what you put faith in!!!
IT'S YOUR KNECK !!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:

AI EAST ASST DIRECTOR
COBRA#17

98banana
11-15-2002, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by COBRA #17
...
One other fact you guys have wrong is you don't have to send your helmet to Hans anymore. You can mount your helmet hardware your self now. The club model is now $999. As far as voiding the snell or ansi I don't know??
...

What other facts were wrong?

COBRA #17
11-15-2002, 07:51 PM
Well the facts about the TESTICAL crushing have been exaggerated!!! The first Hutchens had a single crotch belt and the adding of the second belt solved that problem. They have had no problems with that since the change.

Also the S Marlin incedent happened to another Nascar driver earler in the season and the driver was wearing a Hans. This happend when the driver hit the steering wheel with his chin and the wheel didn't give. NASCAR uses steel wheels and soild steering shafts!! Causing the kneck injury when there is no give in the wheel or shaft!!

I'm not trying to sell the hutchens I just hate to see someone get bashed with untrue facts!!:thumbsup:

AI EAST ASST DIRECTOR
COBRA #17

svt_coupe
11-15-2002, 09:28 PM
And more press I've found out recently...

First, I'm far from an expert on any of this. This is all hearsay.

I've recently heard that to be effective, the HANS and Hutchens need to be very taught. In other words, to work, they need to greatly limit head movement. The straps need to be adjusted to the point that you are *almost* at a preload condition (again, my understanding of it). For example, in a crash with a typical harness, it is not uncommon for the belts to stretch up to 4" (I was rather surprised to hear that). Applying that to the HANS and Hutchens, while the lenght of their straps are much shorter, they'll still stretch (and probably designed to do so). However, because of this, they won't work unless they are snug. This limits head movement...

NOW THIS IS JUST WHAT I HEARD!! Please don't take it as gospel. I'm pretty wigged out by all of the misinformation that's out there. Right when you here some data (i.e. Priestly got cut by the Hutchens belt....), you here the exact opposite. What I'd LOVE to see is a third party or SFI/FIA/whomever test of all of the devices under varying conditions...

With that said... I just had the opportunity to look at the ISAAC device up close. If you are unfamiliar, it uses 2 small shocks (literally) that mount to your helmet with a male-female attachment. They are held in place on the helmet by 2 quick release pins. The other ends mount to the shoulder harnesses. It's a pretty trick setup and one of the best I've seen thus far (again... my VERY humble, very uneducated-on-this-matter opinion). Let me see if I can get someone that knows a LOT more about this than I do to come over here and post about it. I think it's another good product to enter the market. It does not limit head movement and supposedly has far outperformed all other devices in sled crash tests...

My next post is a good read. Deduce what you may from it.

And, never start a sentence with a preposition.

svt_coupe
11-15-2002, 09:39 PM
I first saw this about a year ago. It's resurfaced and it a very pertinent to this topic. Note the talk about how to properly setup a safety harness. I think a lot of the info here carries over into head/neck restraints (again... I'm a dummy with this stuff so take from this what you may).
-Bryan
---------------

This article was posted recently to an online car
forum and I thought some of you may find it
useful/interesting...

Notes On Race Car Harnesses - Design and Installation
©Michael Henderson.

Written for 'The Greasy Rag', an Australian vintage
racing publication. Reprinted in its entirety and with
the author's permission from CSRG News, a monthly
publication of the Classic Sports
Racing Group.

During private practice at Amaroo recently, a very
quick Sports 1300 went straight on over the hill and
down into the earth-filled tire wall outside the
sweeper. The car was badly damaged, with most chassis
rails bent and the engine/gearbox shifted
substantially forwards.

The driver, David Williamson, was extensively injured:

. fractures and dislocations both feet and ankles,
necessitating a wheelchair after discharge from
hospital;
. undisplaced fracture of cervical vertebra;
. fractured ribs, punctured lung;
. bruised spleen;
. fractured left lower arm.

Most of these injuries, if only slightly worse, could
have been fatal or caused permanent disability. David
has readily agreed to my telling his story.

None of us like to think about being hurt in a race
car. But while exploring the edge of control is part
of the kick we get from racing, it seems reasonable
and socially responsible to minimize the risk of being

hurt if we crash. I first started analyzing race
crashes in 1966, and successfully convinced a
skeptical world that it was better to be belted
into an open car than to be thrown out of it. My
development of the six-point harness with the GQ
Parachute Company, taken over later by "Dumbo"
Willans, was part of this work. I still analyze
crashes, but road cars these days. Knowing my
background, David asked me to examine his car and his
injuries, to see whether they might have been
prevented.

This process was so instructive I thought it was worth
writing down some of the lessons in the context of
what new research is showing about race car harnesses.

- First, we worked out what happened to him in the
crash. The actual speed of impact would be an
estimate, but is likely to have been in the order of
100 km/h. The impact was slightly angled, so the speed
might have been higher than that. The car was
effectively crushed about two-thirds of a meter, and
the relatively stiff tire wall probably compressed
about one-third of a meter. The total stopping
distance of a meter then gives the deceleration force
on the car at around 40 g.
- Now we know from the black box crash recorders in
Indy cars that drivers can ride out 40 g crashes with
no more than bruising (the limit of human tolerance is
being approached at about 50 g).

Why not in David's case?

The first reason is that David "submarined".
Basically, he slid partly underneath the lap belt. As
it rode up his stomach to his chest it bruised his
spleen, then it went up and broke some ribs, which in
turn punctured a lung. His feet were forced down to
the footwell, with forces being directly transferred
into a collection of vulnerable small bones and
joints.

Hanging on to the wheel, his arm was broken as he
instinctively tried to stop himself going forward.
This was not enough to stop him being violently flexed
over the lap belt so far that he hit his helmet hard
on the steering wheel, bending the rim about 30
degrees forward. The impact was enough to break a bone
in his neck, just as it was at full stretch.

Because problems with the harness and its installation
and use could have contributed to these injuries, we
studied it carefully. It was a six-point belt, with
two-inch webbing. The shoulder belts had been
routed over a transverse chassis rail behind his
shoulders and down to a lower rail at the bottom of
the car. The crotch straps were joined at a central
single latch plate. David confirmed that they were
quite loose, and could be clipped into the buckle very
easily.

The submarining happened because there was little to
stop it. Crotch straps are there for two reasons. Not
only do they have a direct effect in preventing
sliding underneath the lap belt, they also stabilize
the whole system. Unlike the tree-point belts in a
passenger car, the buckle of a race harness is in the
center. This means as soon as the shoulder belts are
loaded, they pull the lap belt upwards and the lower
part of the body tries to shoot underneath. This
killed Jochen Rindt, who told me in 1969 that although
he had come to accept a harness in the Lotus, he would
never wear crotch straps. In his crash at Monza his
lap belt ended up near his neck, rupturing his liver
on the way. Australian child car seats, which also
have central buckles, have crotch straps for exactly
the same reason.

The excessive flexion of the upper part of David's
body started when he finally got held up by the loose
crotch straps, by which time his feet were mashed in
the footwell. The flexion was allowed by the
geometrically loosened shoulder belts and increased by
the stretching allowed by the long length of the
traps.

General Motors has been doing Indy car crash
simulation (sled) testing, using dummies, for about
five years. We now know far more than we did about the
details of what happens in this kind of crash. It
turns that what we thought was right in the beginning,
was later proved to be pretty right all the time.

svt_coupe
11-15-2002, 09:40 PM
I exceeded the 10,000 character limit. Here's PART II:
--------------
At impact, the whole body moves forwards until lap and
crotch straps restrain the hips. Then the torso
rotates 30 degrees until the shoulder belts stop the
rotation. Most of this movement is due to changing
belt geometry and shape changes to the body within the
belt, even with the mounting points just behind the
shoulder. High-speed movies of a correctly-restrained
dummy reclining at 45 degrees show forward shoulder
movement of about 250 mm in a 40 g crash. About 20% of
this forward motion is due to belt stretch, working
out to about 50 mm.

This confirms two things for us. First, to restrain
body movement within the confines of the shoulder
straps, the belts must be as tight as possible
throughout the crash sequence. And that means
tightness in both the shoulder and crotch straps,
which balance each other. Second, the shorter the
shoulder belts, the less the total stretch. In David's

Sports 1300, fibers in the shoulder belts were melted
as the webbing stretched over the chassis rail.

Not only do slack belts allow more movement - or
"excursion", as we call it in the trade - but they
also directly increase forces on the neck and chest
because the body's deceleration is more violent. The
body slams into the belts at the pre-crash speed of
the car, instead of riding the crash with the car as
it collapses. Loose shoulder belts are a threat
to the neck.

It's very important to get the shoulder belts loaded
as soon as possible in the crash. The best way to
arrange this is to place the mounting points so that
the belts leave the shoulders at about 90 degrees to
the spine. If you sit bolt upright, take the belts
straight backwards; but when reclining, the mounting
points should be below the shoulder but not so as to
take the belts back along a line 40 degrees below the
horizontal. When the diver is reclining, horizontal
shoulder belts don't get fully loaded until well into
the crash, by which time the shoulders will have moved
well forward.

Whatever the car, lap belts should be anchored near
vertically (say, 80 to 90 degrees), with the webbing
passing over or in front of the hip bones.

In a 40 g crash, an 80 kg driver will be loading the
belt system with a 3,200 kg force, about twice the
weight of a fully-laden Falcon. The more widely that
load is distributed, the lower the risk of
belt-induced injury. That's why three-inch (75 mm)
belts, with reasonably stiff webbing, are far better
than belts with two-inch straps. They'll soon be
mandated by the FIA.

Crotch straps can't be made of three-inch webbing, but
in any event they should bear on the bones of the
pelvis between the legs. This allows them to be really
tight without discomfort, and puts crash loadings into

strong (and hard) body parts rather than weak (and
soft). Crutch straps take a heavy beating in a crash.
A friend recently stuffed a March very hard into an
earth bank at Oran Park, and two days later - without
other injuries - had two jet-black bruise lines across
the top fronts of his legs.

To get the right geometry the crotch straps must be
widely separated as they approach the lap belt, just
like a parachute harness. Easily the best way to do
this is to take them up through D-rings on the lap
belts. Every Formula One car has this kink of system.
Taking the twin crotch straps (or, worse, a single
one) via a single latch plate to the bottom of the
buckle is a compromise aimed at cutting cost and
adding convenience, mainly for Sedan cars.

Only a few race harnesses comply with my criteria:
three-inch webbing, D-ring crotch straps, a central
rotary buckle of course, and details such as
spring-loaded anti-slip adjusting buckles. They
include the
following, and I readily concede there may be more I
don't know about :
. Willans 3" Silverstone 6;
. TRW/Sabelt 3" Professional 6-Point;
. Stand 21 STH-36SS 3";
. Simpson 3" 6-point.

The best harnesses don't cost a lot more that the
worst, and less than a couple of tires these days.
Fitting and wearing them properly is free. As David
told me when I was writing his story, if only one
driver's pain is prevented by better understanding,
then it makes his own pain worth while.

BIOGRAPHICAL NOTE
Michael Henderson M.D. is a physician and
internationally-known motor vehicle crash researcher.
He has also been an auto racer since 1960. He was the
author of the seminal "Motor Racing in Safety" in
1968, and influential in turning round Formula One and
other open-wheel racers to acceptance of full
harnesses. His first prototype harness became the
Willans, now used world-wide. He currently drives a
Lola T560 Formula Atlantic in vintage races, and also
has a Lotus Eleven (Dick McGovern's old car), Elva-BMW
and a Ralt RT4. in June, Michael was involved in a
major crash with the Elva-BMW, the car was a
write-off, but Michael came through it with "limited"
injuries, and will be racing again soon.

98banana
11-15-2002, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by svt_coupe
...
What I'd LOVE to see is a third party or SFI/FIA/whomever test of all of the devices under varying conditions...

Bingo! That's exactly what I would like to see. I would think that with all that FIA tests, they would have already tested some of these restraints...

Originally posted by svt_coupe
With that said... I just had the opportunity to look at the ISAAC device up close. If you are unfamiliar, it uses 2 small shocks (literally) that mount to your helmet with a male-female attachment. They are held in place on the helmet by 2 quick release pins. The other ends mount to the shoulder harnesses. It's a pretty trick setup and one of the best I've seen thus far (again... my VERY humble, very uneducated-on-this-matter opinion). Let me see if I can get someone that knows a LOT more about this than I do to come over here and post about it. I think it's another good product to enter the market. It does not limit head movement and supposedly has far outperformed all other devices in sled crash tests...

Any links?

Originally posted by svt_coupe
And, never start a sentence with a preposition.

See, I'm so bad at the engrish thing, I had forgotten it was called a preposition! :D

Dean95CobraR
11-15-2002, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by 98banana
That sounds like Mr. Bennett posts at the Corral. LOL!

Is there any test data available for any of these systems? I'd like to see some comparisons.

Also, does the Hutchins or HANS do anything for lateral head movement? It doesn't look like the SRS-1 will do anything in that area except for cause your head to twist into the force.


LOL I've asked for some hard numbers so we'll see what he comes up with.

I've asked him about the belt positions and here is what he had to say.


The picture is just so everyone can see the unit clearly. The unit was
tested with shoulder straps at a proper angle in a racig seat on the sled.
We also purchased Hans and Hutchens devices and tested them with the SRS-1
for comparisons. The strap that comes down from the helmet to the reaction
rod is available in different lengths. When the SRS-1 is purchased, the
racer needs to take a measurement and the proper length strap is sent. There
will be instructions included with the SRS-1. The proper length strap will
be sent.

If you have any other questions, just let me know.

Howard

Dean95CobraR
11-15-2002, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by COBRA #17
Well I was going to stay ouy of this one but I CAN"T !!!

I have been doing some research and making some calls, BUT I AM BY FAR NO EXPERT ! I have talked to the guys at BSR ( hutchens maker) and have talked to the Hans people also but not as much. First off yes that article was written by the people at the Hans office so yes they are going to bash the other device.
I ordered a Hutchens to take to the track for the Summit event and the BSR people have offered to come to the track and answer questions and do a demonstration in Feb or Mar. They were in Detroit last week doing more testing. Trevor is the head eng. and Bob is a SCCA racer so they are pretty good to talk to.

One other fact you guys have wrong is you don't have to send your helmet to Hans anymore. You can mount your helmet hardware your self now. The club model is now $999. As far as voiding the snell or ansi I don't know??

Also I have been told by a couple people that in Justin Preistly's accident he was cut by the Hutchens helmet conectors. BSR says that that is not true " He was cut by his shoulder harness."

I have a video and some test papers from BSR that they sent me with my Hutchens . I asked them for some information with the device when I ordered it to have to show the guys at the track. They were very helpful and very easy to talk to. I haven't had a real good conversation with the Hans people. I would be glad to send you some info if you would be interested or try to answer some questions.

I have heard that there are several new units coming out but have no in formation on them yet. So if you have some info please send it to me hooverracing@aol.com

Finally be carefull what you read and what you put faith in!!!
IT'S YOUR KNECK !!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:

AI EAST ASST DIRECTOR
COBRA#17

Not sure why you wanted to stay out of the discussion but I'm glad you posted. It's all about safety and information so there's no need to be silent! :thumbsup:

Thanks for the info and I hope to make the spring events. I'd love to see the demo.

Phat-S
11-15-2002, 10:48 PM
Here's the link Tommy-Boy (http://www.isaacdirect.com/)

I have a new test helmet en route sometime in the next week and would be glad to pass along my impressions on the product. Basically, no product out there IMO is bad, just that some work better than others and this product (ISAAC) in particular takes user error out of the equation (not possible to have the shocks fastened too loose - something possible with any product attached via a strap/belt). I have the unit here and am extremely impressed by the stats (from the Wayne State tests) and the video (30 deg angle on the crash test dummy on the sled at Wayne State), the fit and finish and the concept and design. I test fit the crash test helmet (fitted for the first version of the shocks which were longer) and could see how and why this works as well as it did in the tests. I look forward to getting the new helmet which has the mounts accomodating the shortened shocks and would be happy to answer any questions I can.

One thing I can tell you that wasn't affected by the other (unfitted) helmet, getting out of it takes easily less than a second.

All I can say is that it is top notch build quality and I think the design is ingenious.

Adam

Dean95CobraR
11-15-2002, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by svt_coupe
I exceeded the 10,000 character limit. Here's PART II:
--------------
To get the right geometry the crotch straps must be
widely separated as they approach the lap belt, just
like a parachute harness. Easily the best way to do
this is to take them up through D-rings on the lap
belts. Every Formula One car has this kink of system.
Taking the twin crotch straps (or, worse, a single
one) via a single latch plate to the bottom of the
buckle is a compromise aimed at cutting cost and
adding convenience, mainly for Sedan cars.

Only a few race harnesses comply with my criteria:
three-inch webbing, D-ring crotch straps, a central
rotary buckle of course, and details such as
spring-loaded anti-slip adjusting buckles. They
include the
following, and I readily concede there may be more I
don't know about :
. Willans 3" Silverstone 6;
. TRW/Sabelt 3" Professional 6-Point;
. Stand 21 STH-36SS 3";
. Simpson 3" 6-point.




The dual crotch belt claim was just mentioned in an open tracking mailing list that I am on. Basically they said that this only applies to cars that uses a more laid back seating position and not the upright position that we use in our Mustangs. The crotch belts have 2 basic purposes. 1- To keep you from submarining the belts which is very easy to do in a reclined driving position 2 - To keep your lap belt in the correct location.

In other words, the single strap between the legs is fine for our situation.


Bryan - Thanks for posting the information.

Dean95CobraR
11-15-2002, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by Phat-S
Here's the link Tommy-Boy (http://www.isaacdirect.com/)

I have a new test helmet en route sometime in the next week and would be glad to pass along my impressions on the product. Basically, no product out there IMO is bad, just that some work better than others and this product (ISAAC) in particular takes user error out of the equation (not possible to have the shocks fastened too loose - something possible with any product attached via a strap/belt). I have the unit here and am extremely impressed by the stats (from the Wayne State tests) and the video (30 deg angle on the crash test dummy on the sled at Wayne State), the fit and finish and the concept and design. I test fit the crash test helmet (fitted for the first version of the shocks which were longer) and could see how and why this works as well as it did in the tests. I look forward to getting the new helmet which has the mounts accomodating the shortened shocks and would be happy to answer any questions I can.

One thing I can tell you that wasn't affected by the other (unfitted) helmet, getting out of it takes easily less than a second.

All I can say is that it is top notch build quality and I think the design is ingenious.

Adam


Thanks Adam. Would you happen to know the cost on this device?

Phat-S
11-15-2002, 11:02 PM
Under $900 if I recall correctly.

I believe they are talking about issuing a money back guarantee on the product for a limited period of time after purchase as well but I don't know the exact details. One thing is really kinda cool - the designer wears the product in his SRF which I kinda like to hear (that he's a racer and a user).

kevin
11-15-2002, 11:31 PM
well this topic has cetainly progressed since this morning when i tried to post and aol kicked me off and then i was gone all day.

just for the record - this morning i was gonna post that i'm tired of each manufacturer blowing their own horn and diminishing the competion to babbling idiots.

has i've sent to shugg. sportscar magazine did a compariosn on hans and huthens back in march. based on the two frontal tests done by an objective 3rd party - they both were effective with the hutchens just slightly better than hans in one of the tests.

i refuse (anymore) to listen to the bull **** (pardon me) that the various heavily interested and biased parties continue to spew out at the harm of other ideas and the manufacturesrs ideas.

when i bought my hutchens device it and hans were the only ones out there. TIMES CHANGE AND SO DO THE PRODUCTS. hence, information 6 months ago may no longer be valid.

and (a proposition) if you don't wear something properly it sure as hell won't work and anything new requires the user to get used to it. the hutchens device (as i bet the hans is) will be totally worthless unless you tighten the straps up to resrict your head movements (this means you better damn well use your mirrors more often and your SITUATIONAL AWARNESS DAMN WELL BE BETTER THAN YOUR MIRROR USE).

btw, if you read this has me being pissed - well i am. but not at any of you. it's the damn inventors, manufacturerrs, and marketers that don't give a damn about your safety (to the extent they say other products don't work) just so they can take your money from you.

every accident is going to be different. and (another proposition - and i hope you guys get my meaning) the best you can do is put as much safety equipment you can in the car and on yourself (no money spared) and pray to god that it is enough knowing full well that it won't be in all cases.

i apoligize in advance if i've offened anyone on this board (not my iuntent). but hope it makes sense. and if i die in a race car while competing - then so be it. i just hope i did everything i could to prevent it by doing the best i could and using all avavliable information and technology i could to prevent it.

ok. i'll step down ffrom the box i've been on b4 now (but only for now:thumbsup: )

kevin
11-15-2002, 11:35 PM
sorry for the rant guys. i'm just really tired of the manufactureer petty little self interest games - at our expense. (of course i hope there's some other hints of value in what i posted)

Dean95CobraR
11-15-2002, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by kevin
sorry for the rant guys. i'm just really tired of the manufactureer petty little self interest games - at our expense. (of course i hope there's some other hints of value in what i posted)

Whoa there Kevin. Take a deep breath. lol

I guess that no matter what people sell, they are going to bash the compeditors and fight for the almighty dollar. As you said, there are new products coming out all the time. It's really tough to get real facts about any of the them, let alone how they compare to one another.

kevin
11-15-2002, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
Whoa there Kevin. Take a deep breath. lol

I guess that no matter what people sell, they are going to bash the compeditors and fight for the almighty dollar. As you said, there are new products coming out all the time. It's really tough to get real facts about any of the them, let alone how they compare to one another.

did i get carried away?:eek:

the key - buy the best ya can at the time available info is out and then keep in touch with the upgrades/changes. but DON'T WAIT till the PERFECT product comes along.



btw, once some more of you guys start wearing this stuff i'll get teased less for how long it takes to get buckled into my car;)

Phat-S
11-15-2002, 11:55 PM
kevin, I hear you. As the designer of the product I mention pointed out, all of the products (as of two weeks ago to his knowlege) help of that he was in no doubt. He said nothing bad about the products actually, he did say that there were flaws in *how they were used by drivers* (not cinching up to the extent they needed to, to fully utilize their design). Even to this he said they were still partially effective. Their goal in designing the product was to be as effective as the best products out there under load but be unrestrictive without load.

For some reason, I have in my head that there was a report due out on these devices in December. Perhaps one of those other threads has information on that.

For what it is worth, when I met the designer (Gregg), I was with a Hutchens user (he has worn one since hurting his neck in a tire wall incident). The two of them discussed at great lengths the unease the driver had w/ not being able to cinch up his device enough. I don't think that at any time there was a bashing or a disrespectful slam toward the Hutchens device. But if I have offended you or anyone else by posting this information, I apologize and will make no further comment on the subject.

kevin
11-16-2002, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by Phat-S
kevin, I hear you. As the designer of the product I mention pointed out, all of the products (as of two weeks ago to his knowlege) help of that he was in no doubt. He said nothing bad about the products actually, he did say that there were flaws in *how they were used by drivers* (not cinching up to the extent they needed to, to fully utilize their design). Even to this he said they were still partially effective. Their goal in designing the product was to be as effective as the best products out there under load but be unrestrictive without load.

For some reason, I have in my head that there was a report due out on these devices in December. Perhaps one of those other threads has information on that.

For what it is worth, when I met the designer (Gregg), I was with a Hutchens user (he has worn one since hurting his neck in a tire wall incident). The two of them discussed at great lengths the unease the driver had w/ not being able to cinch up his device enough. I don't think that at any time there was a bashing or a disrespectful slam toward the Hutchens device. But if I have offended you or anyone else by posting this information, I apologize and will make no further comment on the subject.


adam. i wasn't venting at you or your post. some other threads i've read away from here as well keeping propagating "mine only works" type of comments. my guess is they all work to some degree but won't work in all instances and clearly are a "nuesance" in some ways. please don't take what i said (and i tried to say it in my posts) that my frustraion is NOT with the folks in here. but like my mirror comments - drivers will be forced to improve in other areas to compensate for the lack of head movement that they are so used to.

mine is cinhed up tight enough that i can't move my head in much of any way. i figured this would be best in an accident. but don't forget the donut either.

again, i was not directing anything i said to you or anyone else on this board. and don't stop adding because of me

Phat-S
11-16-2002, 12:55 AM
kevin, I gotcha. I don't post here often but my mental image here is little smiley faces rolling left and right across the screen so when I read you post following mine, I feared that I had greatly altered the tone of this thread. My misread.

FWIW, I originally wanted to go with the Hutchens (back last January) and asked some SCCA folks at my school what their impression of the device was. I only remembered one comment that I took from that 3 day weekend - that my body type (not thin) acts to prevent me from cinching up a Hutchens to be as effective as it can be (absorbs the straps under load) but that for someone who is very lean, that such a concern doesn't exist. I thought that was interesting (and in my mind, it does make sense). I have told friends who *look* like me this same information as a "hey, I ain't saying its right but it is what I have been told." I do wonder if some of the drivers that have made the internet headlines by wearing the device and still being injured if this in conjunction with loose straps was a contributing factor. Just a thought, as I said originally, I don't think any of these devices are bad, just that some work better than others. I think that I should rephrase that or at least clarify that to mean - work better based on body build, length/shortness of neck, attention/comfort w/ running exceptionally tight harnesses/straps, and comfort/discomfort with range of motion.

Not sure what kind of range of motion you have but I could tell with this on it is not like you can just swing your head around like you just don't care (ain't that a song?) but as long as you consciously move your head slowly (past the initial range of motion offered by the joints), the shocks offer little resistance (low tension when slowly compressed/tensioned, high tension when quickly compressed/tensioned) - I was told that was something you have to remind yourself when you are trying to navigate in the paddock/pits. Even with my limited range of motion with the test helmet, I could pick up both left and right mirror locations but not too much more. I look forward to testing the new helmet and seeing what I see (literally).

Peace

kevin
11-16-2002, 12:59 AM
adam, thanks for understanding where i was coming from.

you have virtually no side to side motion when properly (as i understand it) strapped in with the hutchens on the helmet. i drive to the pits with out it attached to the helmet. i attach it tere, it is very easy to do.

98banana
11-16-2002, 08:36 AM
Damn. I feel bad now for posting the link to the Dr. HANS guy. I apologize to those that it hit a nerve.

Here's the way I see it. Every manufacturer out there is going to try and sell a part. That's everything from safety items to go fast parts. Some have more unscrupulous(sp?) means to do it. It's up to the consumer to weed through the BS and get to the facts. Nothing but the facts, ma'am. That's what we are all here for. That's what Hoover and Kevin are saying in their posts and I respect that. It's nothing different than every other product we've researched and purchased.

I think everybody that knows me well enough knows how I feel about safety equipment, but this is just another part that we have to research and install. It's no different from choosing between Griggs, MM, Steeda or Kenny Brown. Well, we can leave out Kenny I guess. :D

COBRA #17
11-16-2002, 09:28 AM
Well Adam What's up buddy ??? Your Killing me with the size coments I"M BITING MY TOUNGE VERY HARD!!!!! :D :D

I'm a little concerned about that Isaac devise on the compresion side of the helmet( on side impact ). Remember this is just my take on the devise as looking at it and I haven't seen one in person of coarse. I just don't care for the hard part conected to my head.
Just my 2 cents !!!:thumbsup:

Man I have to get to work !!!!! Remember BUY AMERICAN !!!!
:thumbsup: :rotf: :thumbsup:

AI EAST ASST DIRECTOR
COBRA #17

kevin
11-16-2002, 11:46 AM
tom (and everyone else), i'm not trying to curtail open discussion on this or any other topic.

it just hit a nerve when the comment by the "good doctor" was so daming of everyone else's product and so sure of their own.

but once in a while it's the "straw that broke the camel's back" syndrome.

98banana
11-16-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by kevin
tom (and everyone else), i'm not trying to curtail open discussion on this or any other topic.

it just hit a nerve when the comment by the "good doctor" was so daming of everyone else's product and so sure of their own.

but once in a while it's the "straw that broke the camel's back" syndrome.

Totally understood. :thumbsup:

Phat-S
11-16-2002, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by COBRA #17
Well Adam What's up buddy ??? Your Killing me with the size coments I"M BITING MY TOUNGE VERY HARD!!!!! :D :D

I'm a little concerned about that Isaac devise on the compresion side of the helmet( on side impact ). Remember this is just my take on the devise as looking at it and I haven't seen one in person of coarse. I just don't care for the hard part conected to my head.
Just my 2 cents !!!:thumbsup:

Man I have to get to work !!!!! Remember BUY AMERICAN !!!!
:thumbsup: :rotf: :thumbsup:

AI EAST ASST DIRECTOR
COBRA #17

Hehehe, from the bit that I understand on the effective differences of exomorphic vs. mesomorphic vs. endomorphic body types, you my friend could get away with dental tape (floss might be a teeny bit too thin) for straps connecting a Hutchens :D (just in jest my lean and mean friend)

As for the ISAAC's mount points vs. compression concerns, I thought the same before seeing it - probably an upclose view would remove such concern - its a significantly larger footprint on the mount that the d-clip that connects the shock rod to the helmet so it seems inconceivable that it could protrude into the helmet (like I said you'd have to see it to see what I mean). If you get down this way, we can all meet up somewhere, I'll bring the pork chop (which has harnesses) and you can sit in it and see how it works. Just get up w/ Shuggaduck if you plan on being down here sometime this off-season (and you want to get whooped in a go-kart again ;).

Now as for buying American (pron. Amuriken); dude, I am so glad we see things the same way. Buying American made/manufactured products is exceptionally important to me. I mean someone like you of-course has a Zenith TV, a Magnavox VCR, all Harmon Kardon stereo components and I am sure you would NEVER EVER buy a vehicle whose computer was made in Korea, drivetrain was made in Canada and interior was made in Mexico - only 'dem non-amureekans would do that. No worries here bro, I try to always buy American cars; you know, cars built in Marysville, OH, USofA! And please tell me you don't use a Motorola phone, you know, those phones manufactured in Kuala Lumpur Maylaysia ;)

Peace, Love, Grateful Dead :)

COBRA #17
11-16-2002, 06:42 PM
MAN YOUR KILLING ME !!!!!!:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:


I don't recall your lap times being faster than mine ( carts ) maybe it was those extra bruskies the night before !!!!!
Amy and I are planning on coming down after the first of the year. She is addicted to Concord Mills!!!:D Robin and Amy made some shopping plans at Summit Point !!!:thumbsup:

I drive a Kentucky assembled truck with Virginia made interior and not sure where the motor is made at but it is an american company!!:p
Oh yeah it was nice at Summit not having those pissed off bees running around all day !!!!:thumbsup:
What was all that SMACK talk about kicking our asses at Summit and then NO one showed !!! What's up with that !!! I wasn't going to waist my gas anyway !!:D

One other concern I have with the Isaac is what about a rear impact crash wouldn't it cause your head to rise in a rearward motion crash? Just another thought. ( not bashing ) I allways ask a ton of questions !!! It usually brings out the facts !!!:)


AI EAST ASST DIRECTOR
COBRA #17

Phat-S
11-16-2002, 07:04 PM
I don't recall your lap times being faster than mine ( carts ) maybe it was those extra bruskies the night before !!!!!

Oooh your fading memory picked a good time to check out ;)

Oh yeah it was nice at Summit not having those pissed off bees running around all day !!!!

On that note, I am going to do everything I can in the off-season to tone down the sound. I got bounced from a qualifying session at RA for hitting 106 dB - I will be quieter next year.

On the SP thing; that was embarassing from the start. I was pretty suprised at all the pre-SP smack talk and had my money on AI(X) - just ain't a smart bet otherwise.

On the rearward impact, Gregg said they fit the helmets so that there is about a 1/2" of shock travel (not fully compressed) so that the compression works to help protect you in a rearward impact. The rollers on the d-clips that connect to your shoulder harnesses roll with you (getting taught at full extention in a frontal impact) so they wouldn't push the helmet up in a rear impact.

On the side impact; my understanding is that no device was *designed* for that. Ironically, if worn properly, the Hutchens (from my understanding) does reduce lateral loads in an impact better than HANS. This 1/2" shock travel also (just by happenstance not by design) can *help* in a side impact. As I have said before, I don't think any of these products are bad, they all just work differently.

kevin
11-16-2002, 07:59 PM
so adam,

me not knowing, do you race in nasa?
if so, you gonna show up in atlanta this march?

kevin
11-16-2002, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by Phat-S
[
On the side impact; my understanding is that no device was *designed* for that. Ironically, if worn properly, the Hutchens (from my understanding) does reduce lateral loads in an impact better than HANS. This 1/2" shock travel also (just by happenstance not by design) can *help* in a side impact. As I have said before, I don't think any of these products are bad, they all just work differently. [/B]

i beleive you're right on the design thing.

i have found that the hutches does "limit" side to side motion. however, it is greatly enhanced with the donut

Phat-S
11-16-2002, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by kevin
so adam,

me not knowing, do you race in nasa?
if so, you gonna show up in atlanta this march?

I ran 3 race weekends with the Honda Challenge this year but put my focus on racing with the SCCA (that's not a knock, just how I prioritized this year). Shuggs told me about your RA date and after a very disappointing ARRC (first timer) a friend of mine and I have said we are going to set up residence on the Skidpad this year. Basically, I will run every race I possibly can at RA next year sooo, in short, if there is a NASA Pro Sedan race there that weekend as well, I will run it.

On your donut comment, I kiddingly made the comment that it would probably be safest to run the ISAAC, Hutchens, HANS and the big beefy donut to cover all the bases. That or have crew racer's tape my entire torso to the seat from head to pelvis leaving two small eyelets so I can see :)

Ugh back to removing the slushee maker, err I mean transmission :(

kevin
11-16-2002, 08:39 PM
well hope so. i'm looking forward to meeting a bunch of new folks there in march. i generally run the minumum scca races just to keep the license (sp)

COBRA #17
11-16-2002, 11:10 PM
Adam & Kevin, the race at RA is going to be with the NASA FL chapter& Peach Tree BMW club and I'm not sure what classes are going to be there. I think it is mainly a school weekend and we will be the primary race group, but I'm not sure!! Plus it is not in stone yet either.
We plan on running as many races away from NASA VA as posible this year because of the poor treatmnet this past year.
The Lowes HYPER CRAP did us in!!!:mad: When a bunch of guys that pay $35 dollars to slide around, through dirt on the track and try to wreck get more time than a race group that's a little too FAR !!!!!! :321:
I have nothing against te ECHC guys they put a good feild together this year and did a great job.
But the HYPER POOP HAS TO GO !!!!!!! :bs: :mad:
1st off it is HIGHLY UNPROFESIONAL 2nd it's not what people want to pay to see!! SO GET RID OF IT !!!!!!!! Or seperate it from the track and keep it to itself !!!

SORRY GOT CARRIED AWAY !!!!:thumbsup:

AI EAST ASST DIRECTOR
COBRA #17

Phat-S
11-16-2002, 11:50 PM
Arggh! Well, I hope you guys get to race there.

And believe me, I totally hear where you are coming from on the other thing.

kevin
11-17-2002, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by COBRA #17
Adam & Kevin, the race at RA is going to be with the NASA FL chapter& Peach Tree BMW club and I'm not sure what classes are going to be there. I think it is mainly a school weekend and we will be the primary race group, but I'm not sure!! Plus it is not in stone yet either.
We plan on running as many races away from NASA VA as posible this year because of the poor treatmnet this past year.
The Lowes HYPER CRAP did us in!!!:mad: When a bunch of guys that pay $35 dollars to slide around, through dirt on the track and try to wreck get more time than a race group that's a little too FAR !!!!!! :321:
I have nothing against te ECHC guys they put a good feild together this year and did a great job.
But the HYPER POOP HAS TO GO !!!!!!! :bs: :mad:
1st off it is HIGHLY UNPROFESIONAL 2nd it's not what people want to pay to see!! SO GET RID OF IT !!!!!!!! Or seperate it from the track and keep it to itself !!!

SORRY GOT CARRIED AWAY !!!!:thumbsup:

AI EAST ASST DIRECTOR
COBRA #17


please keep us informed. ya never know. there may be room for more but i'd want to know how much track time and how many races

Big Daddy
11-17-2002, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by 98banana
Damn. I feel bad now for posting the link to the Dr. HANS guy. I apologize to those that it hit a nerve.

Here's the way I see it. Every manufacturer out there is going to try and sell a part. That's everything from safety items to go fast parts. Some have more unscrupulous(sp?) means to do it. It's up to the consumer to weed through the BS and get to the facts. Nothing but the facts, ma'am. That's what we are all here for. That's what Hoover and Kevin are saying in their posts and I respect that. It's nothing different than every other product we've researched and purchased.

I think everybody that knows me well enough knows how I feel about safety equipment, but this is just another part that we have to research and install. It's no different from choosing between Griggs, MM, Steeda or Kenny Brown. Well, we can leave out Kenny I guess. :D

Funny Tom, REAL funny! :D ;) ;)

98banana
11-17-2002, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Big Daddy
Funny Tom, REAL funny! :D ;) ;)

Teehehehe....

I was kind of hoping you would be reading this...

Believe it or not, Steeda is one of the front runners on which suspension I put on the super nanner. I'm looking into the 5-Link rear setup they have. If I can work through the coil over limitation with them, then they may get my money.

sn8kbit
11-17-2002, 08:11 PM
tom, i've looked at those pics.. without seeing the thing firsthand installed, i've got a couple ideers that might allow the coilovers on that setup.......

once i get it sorted, i'll save those pics from corral, and photoshop some arrows in and try to get what's in my head onto a pic....

also a way to mount that upper arm tab that'd inspire a bit more confidence......;)

98banana
11-17-2002, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by sn8kbit
tom, i've looked at those pics.. without seeing the thing firsthand installed, i've got a couple ideers that might allow the coilovers on that setup.......

once i get it sorted, i'll save those pics from corral, and photoshop some arrows in and try to get what's in my head onto a pic....

also a way to mount that upper arm tab that'd inspire a bit more confidence......;)

Excellent Steve. I welcome ideas. :thumbsup:

Personally, I can't see a problem with the coil-overs knowing how mine fit. The bottoms aren't any wider than the non-coil-overs until you get to the spring perch which would be above the bottom bracket. I'm gonna call Steeda this week and try to get more info.

gbaker
11-18-2002, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by svt_coupe


With that said... I just had the opportunity to look at the ISAAC device up close. If you are unfamiliar, it uses 2 small shocks (literally) that mount to your helmet with a male-female attachment. They are held in place on the helmet by 2 quick release pins. The other ends mount to the shoulder harnesses. It's a pretty trick setup and one of the best I've seen thus far (again... my VERY humble, very uneducated-on-this-matter opinion). Let me see if I can get someone that knows a LOT more about this than I do to come over here and post about it. I think it's another good product to enter the market. It does not limit head movement and supposedly has far outperformed all other devices in sled crash tests...

And, never start a sentence with a preposition.

Bryan,

I'm an engineer with the ISAAC company, and would be happy to answer any questions anyone may have. (We noticed a spike in hits coming from this thread.)

Along the FAQ line:

1) We won't bash competing products -- they all help. Some just help more than others.
2) Yes, all products that work based on position (everything but an ISAAC) work better when they are kept tight. Even the worst product, however, worn loosely will still remove about 50% of the loads from the head.
3) Anytime you attach something to your head/helmet you will lose some head mobility. ISAAC will limit mobility somewhat, but not enough to cause a problem while racing, according to those who have used it.
4) Both ISAAC and HANS remove over 80% of head loads. We tested last in July and removed 83% of the head loads. That was about 3% better than HANS. HANS tested again a few weeks later with the tethers tightened to about 1" of slack and beat our numbers by 3%. There is a product comparison graph on our Web site at www.isaacdirect.com

Please pardon my prepositions and dangling participles :) .

kevin
11-18-2002, 04:12 PM
welcome greg, at least you've been open to the others. i haven't checked your site yet but you don't mention hutchens. is there a reason?

kevin
11-18-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by kevin
welcome greg, at least you've been open to the others. i haven't checked your site yet but you don't mention hutchens. is there a reason?

opps. gregg:thumbsup:

gbaker
11-18-2002, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by kevin
welcome greg, at least you've been open to the others. i haven't checked your site yet but you don't mention hutchens. is there a reason?

Kevin,

Thanks for the welcome. We always hesitate to jump into these discussions because of the appearance of a conflict of interest, as has been noted in this thread (and how!).

The Hutchens is a good product. It will remove about 50% of the head loads even if worn loosely -- more if tight. I didn't mention it because everyone wants to know how ISAAC compares to the HANS.

Our site posts a comparative performance chart at http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/chart.html We posted this because people want to see the products stacked up against one another. After more than two years of research, this is the best information we can find.

I also saw the March issue of SportsCar which included the article mentioned in an above post. It was good, but didn't go into how tightly the devices were attached to the crash dummy. If you wear a Hutchens very tightly (not just snug, but actually preloaded) it performs very well. When we designed ISAAC we wanted to avoid the whole "tight/lose" thing. Shocks were the answer.

gbaker
11-18-2002, 05:19 PM
Kevin,

I like the Herodotus quote on your signature :cool:

Being of like mind, we told the lawyers to take a hike when we put together our waiver:

http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/order.html

svt_coupe
11-18-2002, 05:54 PM
Gregg,

A very big welcome to our little corner of the web! Thanks for taking the time to explain some things about your product.

A little history... Adam Richman ('phat-s' on this forum) invited me to the ISAAC device info session you held in Charlotte just a short time ago. I was very disappointed that I was not able to attend - work was too busy that week and I couldn't get away in the middle of the day. However, Adam took very good notes and shared much of what he heard.

As posted earlier, I did have the opportunity to look over the ISAAC device Adam currently has. It looks like a very well thought-out, well designed product upon initial inspection. After getting an explanation of how and why it works, I truly feel like it's a fantastic device.

If you browse over some of the threads in this forum, you'll notice that a lot of us either attend schools, time trials, or wheel-to-wheel racing events. You'll also notice a reoccurring theme - safety issues. I think I can speak for all of us on this - we are very interested in taking the steps needed to decrease the chances of injury (or worse). Some of us have experienced our fair share of mishaps this year (myself included) and the "safety light" has turned on. One of my fellow competitors suffered a fractured vertebrae due to what appeared to be a "mild" accident (based on car damage). I think that woke up a lot of the competitors in our series (www.americaniron-east.com) after hearing this news.

I was disappointed when Adam told me he didn't get the chance to try the ISAAC at Road Atlanta last weekend. I'm eagerly awaiting his feedback after use.

Again, thanks for taking the time to come check us out. Don't be a stranger here!!

Bryan Shugg

kevin
11-18-2002, 06:07 PM
gregg (see i was paying attention this time)

your waiver alone gets you out of the ordinary marketers first flush.

obviously you guys get it. just keep on rock'n on. hell after enough reasearch on my part i may have to give up hutchens (but at least i'm using some form of protection (those who don't get it need to read the waiver first)

svt_coupe
11-18-2002, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
Being of like mind, we told the lawyers to take a hike when we put together our waiver:

http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/order.html

Oh, that is too good...

GREAT waiver!! :D :D

97whitevert
11-18-2002, 06:21 PM
GREAT Waiver, Gregg!! ( see i get it the 1st time;) )

i feel like i have heard this preached to me before ..... you know who you are and i appreciate it!!! :D:D:D

gbaker
11-18-2002, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by svt_coupe
Gregg,

A very big welcome to our little corner of the web! Thanks for taking the time to explain some things about your product.

No problem. We get some of the best feedback from these forums.

A little history... Adam Richman ('phat-s' on this forum) invited me to the ISAAC device info session you held in Charlotte just a short time ago. I was very disappointed that I was not able to attend - work was too busy that week and I couldn't get away in the middle of the day. However, Adam took very good notes and shared much of what he heard.

Sorry you couldn't make it. Adam asked a lot of good questions.

As posted earlier, I did have the opportunity to look over the ISAAC device Adam currently has. It looks like a very well thought-out, well designed product upon initial inspection. After getting an explanation of how and why it works, I truly feel like it's a fantastic device.

Thanks. After a lot of time and effort, it's rewarding to get such comments. Our background is in aerospace components and biomechanical implants. In those fields you can't do a lot of trial-and-error design work. Try telling a brain surgeon, "If it doesn't work this time, we'll just find another patient!" We spent 18 months on design and prototype development before the first crash test.

I was disappointed when Adam told me he didn't get the chance to try the ISAAC at Road Atlanta last weekend. I'm eagerly awaiting his feedback after use.

Yeah, he had some mechanical problems with the car and wasn't able to attach the helmet mounts in time to try the system. We will be sending him a helmet (with mounts) soon. Maybe he can make the Turkey Trot at Sebring!

Again, thanks for taking the time to come check us out. Don't be a stranger here!!

Bryan Shugg

My pleasure. I'll check in periodically.

COBRA #17
11-18-2002, 06:59 PM
Thank you for your intrest in the little guys !!!!
But we are GROWING !!!!!! ( AI RULES !!)

I haven't used any of the devices yet but I did buy a Hutchens to take to the track for demonstration to others! I am not sold on any of this stuff yet. Your product looks great but I'm a little weary of bolting peices on the side of my head that may puncture in to my head in some way. I DON"T HAVE ANY BRAIN CELLS TO SPARE !!!!! (OK GUYS LEAVE THIS ONE ALONE !!!!):p

I am looking forward to seeing the device in person!
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK !!!:thumbsup:

GREAT JOB ON THE WAIVER !!!:D :rotf:
What the hell ever happend to comman sense in this world?? I guess the lawyers ruined that HUH?? :thumbsup:

AI EAST ASST DIRECTOR
COBRA #17
1 fast hillbilly !!! :thumbsup:

gbaker
11-18-2002, 07:02 PM
Kevin, Bryan and Lisa,

Hey, you can't let the lawyers have all the fun!

Dean95CobraR
11-18-2002, 07:10 PM
Thanks for dropping in on this discussion. It is always a big plus when the manufacture can get in on it too.

ISAAC Waiver
And don't drill holes in the helmet while you are wearing the helmet.

:thumbsup: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Gotta love it!!

gbaker
11-18-2002, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
Thanks for dropping in on this discussion. It is always a big plus when the manufacture can get in on it too.



:thumbsup: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Gotta love it!!

Northern Indiana? Orthopaedics? You wouldn't be in Warsaw would you?

gbaker
11-18-2002, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by kevin
gregg (see i was paying attention this time)

your waiver alone gets you out of the ordinary marketers first flush.

obviously you guys get it. just keep on rock'n on. hell after enough reasearch on my part i may have to give up hutchens (but at least i'm using some form of protection (those who don't get it need to read the waiver first)

Kevin,

Yeah, we get it. Just a bunch of gearheads here. Keep your Hutchens until you upgrade!

Dean95CobraR
11-18-2002, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
Northern Indiana? Orthopaedics? You wouldn't be in Warsaw would you?

:eek: Yep, the one and only. How do you know about this area??

Dean95CobraR
11-18-2002, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
Northern Indiana? Orthopaedics? You wouldn't be in Warsaw would you?


Hmmmm, I noticed that you are from Orlando. I am going to be in Daytona for the Skip Barber Racing School in December. Do you think it would be possible to get a look at this device while I am down there?

kevin
11-19-2002, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
Hmmmm, I noticed that you are from Orlando. I am going to be in Daytona for the Skip Barber Racing School in December. Do you think it would be possible to get a look at this device while I am down there?

you two in the fields you're in - can dean say guinea pig:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: sorry dean:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :thumbsup:

gbaker
11-19-2002, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
:eek: Yep, the one and only. How do you know about this area??

As an engineer with an aerospace company on the west coast I was the company's rep to a joint venture with Biomet. We developed the first titanium alloy intramedullary nail. I've been in the field ever since.

gbaker
11-19-2002, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
Hmmmm, I noticed that you are from Orlando. I am going to be in Daytona for the Skip Barber Racing School in December. Do you think it would be possible to get a look at this device while I am down there?

Sure. Better yet, we can deliver one to the track for you to use over the weekend. (How's that for customer service! :D )

The wife and I usually spend weekends at a family beach house near Daytona, about 30 minutes from the track, so it would be no problem to drop one off.

What is your helmet size? Which session are you attending?

Give me a shout off-post (gbaker@isaacdirect.com) and we can set it up.

You're gonna love Skip Barber. I did the Intro school a couple years ago. Great fun.

gbaker
11-19-2002, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by kevin
you two in the fields you're in - can dean say guinea pig:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: sorry dean:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :thumbsup:

Hey Kevin, you think Dean and I can talk Skip Barber into letting us conduct some live crash testing? Hell, they can write the car off to R&D!;)

kevin
11-19-2002, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by gbaker
Hey Kevin, you think Dean and I can talk Skip Barber into letting us conduct some live crash testing? Hell, they can write the car off to R&D!;)


fortunatly (if skippy hasn't changed the rules) if you crash, you get another car at no charge.

when i did skippy at lime rock - one guy wrecked 3 times, 3 cars:eek:

kevin
11-19-2002, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by gbaker
Hey Kevin, you think Dean and I can talk Skip Barber into letting us conduct some live crash testing? Hell, they can write the car off to R&D!;)


and (ode to tom), the only risk would be to dean if some of us found and even had a pic or to. dean clearly understands this risk;)

kevin
11-19-2002, 11:45 AM
dean, if the connection happens at skippy on the issac. pleas post your thots for us all. thanks

Dean95CobraR
11-19-2002, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
As an engineer with an aerospace company on the west coast I was the company's rep to a joint venture with Biomet. We developed the first titanium alloy intramedullary nail. I've been in the field ever since.


Very cool!! Yep, Biomet is what feeds this track addiction for me.:thumbsup:

What a small world.:eek:

Phat-S
11-19-2002, 12:15 PM
Hey Gregg, I'd "welcome" you but I am but the closest thing I've ever owned to a Cobra was a couple 40 oz. bottles back in my college days ;)

Yeah, he had some mechanical problems with the car and wasn't able to attach the helmet mounts in time to try the system. We will be sending him a helmet (with mounts) soon. Maybe he can make the Turkey Trot at Sebring!

Crossing fingers and hoping for the best. Ataully Shugg was over here helping me drop the tranny on Sunday (thanks to this board btw for providing me some good breaks from the preliminary removal stuff I was doing Saturday night) so I could finally see what was up. I now have Cold Air Intake in the Clutch Housing :D The backup tranny goes to the doctor on Thursday and hopefully the LSD/FD survived the perforation game that went on in there.

Dean95CobraR
11-19-2002, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
Sure. Better yet, we can deliver one to the track for you to use over the weekend. (How's that for customer service! :D )

The wife and I usually spend weekends at a family beach house near Daytona, about 30 minutes from the track, so it would be no problem to drop one off.

What is your helmet size? Which session are you attending?

Give me a shout off-post (gbaker@isaacdirect.com) and we can set it up.

You're gonna love Skip Barber. I did the Intro school a couple years ago. Great fun.


Wow! Customer service can't get any better than that! I'll email you with all the details to get this set up.

I'm sure it will get plenty of attention from both drivers and instructors. Are you sure you're not in marketing?? ;)

Dean95CobraR
11-19-2002, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
Hey Kevin, you think Dean and I can talk Skip Barber into letting us conduct some live crash testing? Hell, they can write the car off to R&D!;)


I'm all for it as long as I'm not in the drivers seat. :D

Dean95CobraR
11-19-2002, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by kevin
and (ode to tom), the only risk would be to dean if some of us found and even had a pic or to. dean clearly understands this risk;)



:yup:

Dean95CobraR
11-19-2002, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by kevin
dean, if the connection happens at skippy on the issac. pleas post your thots for us all. thanks


You betcha! ;)

I'll also try to get some detailed pictures of it when it's all hooked up. I am really looking forward to it. There's not too many times you get to test something before you potentially buy it.:thumbsup:

Dean95CobraR
11-19-2002, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
There's not too many times you get to test something before you potentially buy it.:thumbsup:


BTW - "Test" was probably not the word I should have used.:rolleyes:

I'd rather not "test" it but just wear it.:D

kevin
11-19-2002, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
BTW - "Test" was probably not the word I should have used.:rolleyes:

I'd rather not "test" it but just wear it.:D

you no dummy;) :D

97whitevert
11-19-2002, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by kevin
you no dummy;) :D

:rotf: :rotf: we never said that HE was.....:D :D

gbaker
11-19-2002, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
Very cool!! Yep, Biomet is what feeds this track addiction for me.:thumbsup:

What a small world.:eek:

Say Hi to Dane Miller for me, if he's still there. I first met him in 1984 (getting old! :( ).

BTW, are you guys still making the Ti nails? I believe it came to market under the "Universal" trade name.

gbaker
11-19-2002, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
Wow! Customer service can't get any better than that! I'll email you with all the details to get this set up.

I'm sure it will get plenty of attention from both drivers and instructors. Are you sure you're not in marketing?? ;)

Honest. Licensed Professional Engineer.

Seriously, though, all the grunt work has been done on the safety/engineering side and the product is shipping. Like all products, ISAAC will be improved over time and we want to get as much feedback as possible from users so we can incorporate their ideas into the next version. :thumbsup:

gbaker
11-19-2002, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Phat-S
Hey Gregg, I'd "welcome" you but I am but the closest thing I've ever owned to a Cobra was a couple 40 oz. bottles back in my college days ;)

I remember those 40 oz bottles!

BTW, I just had lunch with one of the owners of SpeedComm. We are going to meet up with him at Sebring on the 29th and they are going to wire up a bunch of helmets for us (assuming they get here in time). If it's OK with you, we'd like to send you a helmet equipped with ISAAC mounts and wired for your radio. :)

Can you wait that long?

gbaker
11-19-2002, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
You betcha! ;)

I'll also try to get some detailed pictures of it when it's all hooked up. I am really looking forward to it. There's not too many times you get to test something before you potentially buy it.:thumbsup:

Hey, everyone. How about we take some photos of Dean with the system and post them on the web site? Or is he too ugly? ;)

98banana
11-19-2002, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
Hey, everyone. How about we take some photos of Dean with the system and post them on the web site? Or is he too ugly? ;)

Dean's not really that bad looking. Here's a pic from a past event...
http://www.uglypeople.com/uglymen/section.images/up-men-00289.jpg

And (my signature move now), welcome to the board Gregg.

gbaker
11-19-2002, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
There's not too many times you get to test something before you potentially buy it.:thumbsup:

For everyone's information, the company has a 30 day return policy. If you don't like it (for ANY reason) just send it back for a refund. :eek: . And no, I'm not in marketing.

(Oops! Just began a sentence with a preposition.)

gbaker
11-19-2002, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by 98banana
Dean's not really that bad looking. Here's a pic from a past event...

And (my signature move now), welcome to the board Gregg.

I think I just broke something laughing so hard!

Thanks for the welcome. And (!), your preposition problem is contageous.

COBRA #17
11-19-2002, 03:43 PM
Sounds like Gregg and his bunch are pretty confident in there product.
I have BSR set up for a demonstration & Q&A sesion at the first VIR event in feb. Would you guys be interested? It is the 4 hour enduro and driving school.


AI EAST ASST DIRECTOR
COBRA #17

kevin
11-19-2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
Hey, everyone. How about we take some photos of Dean with the system and post them on the web site? Or is he too ugly? ;)

gregg, only as long as he's not wearing his "R" shorts:eek: :eek:

also, do you keep track of the buyers as to what race classes, santioncing bodies (scca, nasa, vintage) etc. that you sell to?

kevin
11-19-2002, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
I think I just broke something laughing so hard!

Thanks for the welcome. And (!), your preposition problem is contageous.

and so is tom's weight reduction syndrome:thumbsup:

kevin
11-19-2002, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
For everyone's information, the company has a 30 day return policy. If you don't like it (for ANY reason) just send it back for a refund. :eek: . And no, I'm not in marketing.

(Oops! Just began a sentence with a preposition.)

if i remeber correctly you said this fits the individual rather than the car. therefore, you can wear it and change cars. if this is the case, i'm wondering if you drive an open roadster with no windshield do the various attachments/shocks cause additional wind noise? at speeds of 165mph? or has this even been tested for?

gbaker
11-19-2002, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by COBRA #17
Sounds like Gregg and his bunch are pretty confident in there product.

We know it works very well in crash tests. If anyone returns it, it will be because they have never used a head restraint and find ISAAC annoying, but any product is annoying. BTW, one condition on the return: it must be in good condition. Don't turn it into sub-atomic particles and expect a free replacement.

I have BSR set up for a demonstration & Q&A sesion at the first VIR event in feb. Would you guys be interested? It is the 4 hour enduro and driving school.

If possible, we'd love to be there. We don't have a road crew together yet for track support, but may by then. I had lunch today with someone about this very subject, so we may be able to attend.

gbaker
11-19-2002, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by kevin
gregg, only as long as he's not wearing his "R" shorts:eek: :eek:

also, do you keep track of the buyers as to what race classes, santioncing bodies (scca, nasa, vintage) etc. that you sell to?

We ask for that information on the order form, but it's optional.

gbaker
11-19-2002, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by kevin
if i remeber correctly you said this fits the individual rather than the car. therefore, you can wear it and change cars. if this is the case, i'm wondering if you drive an open roadster with no windshield do the various attachments/shocks cause additional wind noise? at speeds of 165mph? or has this even been tested for?

One end attaches to the helmet with aircraft-grade, quick-release pins. The other end attaches to the shoulder belt with "hairclip" pins, so it can be moved from car to car. I just leave it in the car and hook up to the helmet when I get in.

Four days after our last crash test I used it in an open cockpit Spec Racer Ford at an SCCA school at Daytona. It was the short infield course, so speeds didn't get much over 110 or so, if that. Didn't notice any wind noise.

FWIW, we're looking at a titanium alloy-based version for the big budget, go fast crowd (200+). Probably do some aero work on a trimmed down helmet connector.

kevin
11-19-2002, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
BTW, one condition on the return: it must be in good condition. Don't turn it into sub-atomic particles and expect a free replacement.
]

:rotf: didn't see this in you leaglize waiver:thumbsup:

gbaker
11-19-2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by kevin
:rotf: didn't see this in you leaglize waiver:thumbsup:

Damn. Must have missed it.

kevin
11-19-2002, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
One end attaches to the helmet with aircraft-grade, quick-release pins. The other end attaches to the shoulder belt with "hairclip" pins, so it can be moved from car to car. I just leave it in the car and hook up to the helmet when I get in.

Four days after our last crash test I used it in an open cockpit Spec Racer Ford at an SCCA school at Daytona. It was the short infield course, so speeds didn't get much over 110 or so, if that. Didn't notice any wind noise.

FWIW, we're looking at a titanium alloy-based version for the big budget, go fast crowd (200+). Probably do some aero work on a trimmed down helmet connector.

i'm wondering in terms of road atlanta this march. if the nasa guys say there's room for a couple more to race with them (non-ai) then i'm wondering if the "straights" are long enough to hit the 160 mark to see if there's any unusal or distracting vibration/noise. (ra's map nor website, that i can find, tell how long their "straights" are)

gbaker
11-19-2002, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by kevin
i'm wondering in terms of road atlanta this march. if the nasa guys say there's room for a couple more to race with them (non-ai) then i'm wondering if the "straights" are long enough to hit the 160 mark to see if there's any unusal or distracting vibration/noise. (ra's map nor website, that i can find, tell how long their "straights" are)

That would be a good test.

I believe the straight between turns 8 and 10 is about 1/2 mile, although it seemed longer when I did the Porsche Driving Experience with a Dr. client there in 2000. You could pedal the 911s up to about 130 approaching 10, if that helps.

The helmet mount location is behind the center of the helmet, so it's out of the windstream somewhat.

kevin
11-19-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
That would be a good test.

I believe the straight between turns 8 and 10 is about 1/2 mile, although it seemed longer when I did the Porsche Driving Experience with a Dr. client there in 2000. You could pedal the 911s up to about 130 approaching 10, if that helps.

The helmet mount location is behind the center of the helmet, so it's out of the windstream somewhat.

if that's the case then i should reach 160. my car pulls a lot harder than a porsche (but they more than make up for it in the turns)

i'll keep ya posted on attending that event and maybe work soemthing out;)

gbaker
11-19-2002, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by kevin
i'll keep ya posted on attending that event and maybe work soemthing out;)

Whole lot a winkin' goin' on!:cool:

97whitevert
11-19-2002, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by kevin
and so is tom's weight reduction syndrome:thumbsup: this i can attest to!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :bounce:

98banana
11-19-2002, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by kevin
if that's the case then i should reach 160. my car pulls a lot harder than a porsche (but they more than make up for it in the turns)

i'll keep ya posted on attending that event and maybe work soemthing out;)

I was reaching around 135 on that back straight so I'd imagine with power you can get to 160. I have no idea what kind of power your car has though.

kevin
11-19-2002, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by 98banana
I was reaching around 135 on that back straight so I'd imagine with power you can get to 160. I have no idea what kind of power your car has though.

about 450hp/450tq 2280lbs. aerodynamics of a brick

98banana
11-19-2002, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by kevin
about 450hp/450tq 2280lbs. aerodynamics of a brick

Sounds like a fast brick! :D

gbaker
11-19-2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by kevin
about 450hp/450tq 2280lbs. aerodynamics of a brick

Reminds me of something an aerospace engineer once said about the F-15: "If you pour enough fuel through a large enough engine, you can make a brick fly."

kevin
11-19-2002, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by 98banana
Sounds like a fast brick! :D

because of aero and gearing it max's out at about 163-165 depending on the rear tire diameter

kevin
11-19-2002, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
Reminds me of something an aerospace engineer once said about the F-15: "If you pour enough fuel through a large enough engine, you can make a brick fly."


this is one brick i'd rather not see fly:eek:

however, at that speed there's not much steering control (especially on the front "straight" of vir)

Dean95CobraR
11-19-2002, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
Say Hi to Dane Miller for me, if he's still there. I first met him in 1984 (getting old! :( ).

BTW, are you guys still making the Ti nails? I believe it came to market under the "Universal" trade name.


Yep, he's still here although I don't see him around as much as I used to. Him and his wife have started an ARCA team with Jason Jarrett as the driver. You should look him up when they test at Daytona.

Yep, we still have several lines of Titanium nails and the Universal is still around. :thumbsup:

Dean95CobraR
11-19-2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by 98banana
Dean's not really that bad looking. Here's a pic from a past event...
http://www.uglypeople.com/uglymen/section.images/up-men-00289.jpg

And (my signature move now), welcome to the board Gregg.

Come on Tom, that's not fair. I hadn't had my morning cup of coffee yet.:tongue:

BTW - Did you know that hat is 3-layer Nomex?:D

Dean95CobraR
11-20-2002, 06:42 AM
http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/chart.gif

Gregg,
In this chart, what does the tan area represent?

Is the "webbing system" considered the Hutchens device?

Dean95CobraR
11-20-2002, 06:46 AM
http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/008_08.jpg

I was concerned about releasing the device in a hurry especially with gloves on but if I am not mistaken, the green colored cord is attached to the release pin?


Also, have you done any testing on a side impact type crash?


BTW - I am checking with Skip Barber's office to make sure that it would be OK for me to wear this device.

gbaker
11-20-2002, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
Yep, he's still here although I don't see him around as much as I used to. Him and his wife have started an ARCA team with Jason Jarrett as the driver. You should look him up when they test at Daytona.

Yep, we still have several lines of Titanium nails and the Universal is still around. :thumbsup:

Talk about a small world! That's great about the Universal. It was way ahead of its time 15+ years ago -- glad to see it's holding its own in the market.

I'll have to give Dane a call.

gbaker
11-20-2002, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR


Gregg,
In this chart, what does the tan area represent?

Is the "webbing system" considered the Hutchens device?

The tan area represents the range of load on the head. The tighter the device is worn, the lower the loads.

ISAAC isn't worn, so you don't have to keep it tight, so its performance is constant.

We used the label "webbing" to include all the strap-based systems: Hutchens and Simpson principally. They all work about the same.

gbaker
11-20-2002, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR

I was concerned about releasing the device in a hurry especially with gloves on but if I am not mistaken, the green colored cord is attached to the release pin?


Also, have you done any testing on a side impact type crash?


BTW - I am checking with Skip Barber's office to make sure that it would be OK for me to wear this device.

The cord is just a tether so you don't have to put the pins in your pocket when out of the car. You have to push the release button in front to remove the pin. Adam from Charlotte has used the system and posted this above:

"One thing I can tell you that wasn't affected by the other (unfitted) helmet, getting out of it takes easily less than a second."

There are currently no standards for side impact tests. We've decided not to wait for one though, so we will be testing as soon as we can set it up.

Skip's lawyers will probably say "no."

kevin
11-20-2002, 09:58 AM
as gregg pointed out for the tan area on the chart, it's you tightening or not.

when i first started wearing the hutchens it wasn't nearly tight enough to do it's full potential (it didn't take long to figure this out) you just take your head and move it down, if you can it's way too loose.

again, as gregg pointed out, you'll find it or anything else uncomfortable at first, but yoou get used to it. the hutchens is now tight enough that there's no room for more tightening and i don't even know it's there anymore once you start driving

kevin
11-20-2002, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by kevin
as gregg pointed out for the tan area on the chart, it's you tightening or not.

when i first started wearing the hutchens it wasn't nearly tight enough to do it's full potential (it didn't take long to figure this out) you just take your head and move it down, if you can it's way too loose.

again, as gregg pointed out, you'll find it or anything else uncomfortable at first, but yoou get used to it. the hutchens is now tight enough that there's no room for more tightening and i don't even know it's there anymore once you start driving

btw, this was not meant to be saying the huthens is better, it's not but it is less expensive (325 vs 895 vs 1100) as compared to the two other main options. and before you all say "but kevin, i thot you were all gung ho on safety and settled on price" - yes and no. issac wasn't available at the time and based on the test data available at the time - hutchens was nearly as effective for a whole lot less spent on the hans. i am one who will consider the new stuff as it becomes available, and i am.

the above post was simply to confirm - you're not going to like the issa or anything else when you first start wearing it, and because some devices are adjustable, human nature being what it is, you'll wear the device loose (rendering it ineffective) if it allows you too.

kevin
11-20-2002, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by gbaker
Skip's lawyers will probably say "no." [/B]

you're probably righ here.

however, they allow students to wear their own helmets and so i doubt they will say no if you just show up with it ti wear (meaning, you're not testing it in their school);)

gbaker
11-20-2002, 12:19 PM
Kevin,

Glad you spoke up, as an experienced Hutchens user. Everyone who uses ANY system always has two comments:

1. They are annoying to futz with (just like a helmet or harness system), and
2. You don't notice them when racing.

Same holds true for ISAAC. We just designed it so you don't have to wear it and you don't need to worry about keeping it tight.

Dean will probably not like having to futz with ISAAC.

Given the information available when you bought your Hutchens, you made a good choice. This "loose/tight" thing just came up in the last six months or so.

On another subject, we purposely designed the system so it could be disassembled and reassembled by the racer (all racers are good mechanics). The idea is that you can get an ISAAC now and be able to upgrade later -- if we come out with a new belt or helmet connector, for example, just order it and swap out the old parts.

Other manufacturers are recommending the webbing be replaced every two years or so. Since there shouldn't be any "wear" with an ISAAC, you shouldn't have this expense. Or you could just spend the money on upgrades and stay current. Your choice.

svt_coupe
11-20-2002, 12:43 PM
Gregg - In testing, did you have any shocks blow on you? i.e. They blew and the dampening effects were negated? I'm just curious if you initially saw any issues with shocks failing and have since upgraded. I haven't heard anything about that, but the thought occured to me last night.

Thinking along those lines, do temperature extremes have any impact on the affectivness of the ISAAC? i.e. hot interior temps would theoretically lessen the dampening.... OR, are the shocks so small that this is a null point?

gbaker
11-20-2002, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by svt_coupe
Gregg - In testing, did you have any shocks blow on you? i.e. They blew and the dampening effects were negated? I'm just curious if you initially saw any issues with shocks failing and have since upgraded. I haven't heard anything about that, but the thought occured to me last night.

Thinking along those lines, do temperature extremes have any impact on the affectivness of the ISAAC? i.e. hot interior temps would theoretically lessen the dampening.... OR, are the shocks so small that this is a null point?

Bryan,

Good questions. Nothing broke and the shocks did not blow out or leak. The seals are probably shot, althought the shocks work smoothly with about the same damping coefficient.

Personally, I wouldn't use ANY system again after a big crash. Especially one that takes so much load off the head, because that load goes into the system -- over 1,500 pounds in the case of ISAAC. At that level you could put a hairline crack in a composite or metal component, or stretch the webbing (altering its characteristics) and not be able to see it. By the time you Magnaflux/X-ray for cracks and reweb something you're beyond the cost of a new one.

Yeah, temperature changes will alter the damping coefficient, but the shocks are so loose that even a large percentage change would be a small change in absolute damping. For example, head loads with ISAAC measured 299 pounds. We tested in Detroit in mid July, so I would guess the temp was 80-85. If the driver is in a closed-cockpit, front-engined car at Sebring in the summer the shocks could see, say, 150 degrees. Let's guess that cuts the damping by 1/3 (unlikely) and the load spikes 1/3. That would put the head loads near 400 pounds, with a fatal limit of 740 pounds. Still plenty of cushion.

Man, you guys are sharp! Everyone gets an "A":thumbsup:

kevin
11-20-2002, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by gbaker

Man, you guys are sharp! Everyone gets an "A":thumbsup: [/B]

we're not just a bunch of smiley faces:D


but we won't let the serious stuff keep us from having fun either:thumbsup:

kevin
11-20-2002, 08:22 PM
btw, i'll be leaving town in the am and may not have axcess for over a week. hence, don't think i'll be snubbing all y'all. where i'm going i tend not to be able to load sites like this:(

Dean95CobraR
11-20-2002, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
Skip's lawyers will probably say "no."


:D Got an answer today and it's a go!:thumbsup:

Here is what he said.

"Dear Dean,

I don't think there would be any problem employing the Isaac system. As long as the helmet is SA95 or better and the system does not have any negative effects on you or the car, it should be fine. I would bring it and try it out.

Sincerely,

David O'Hara
Skip Barber Racing
School & Series Advisor"

I will get you a helmet size and let you know my flight info in the next couple of days.

Dean95CobraR
11-20-2002, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by kevin
btw, i'll be leaving town in the am and may not have axcess for over a week. hence, don't think i'll be snubbing all y'all. where i'm going i tend not to be able to load sites like this:(


Have a good trip Kevin and say hi to Susan from me.:)

kevin
11-20-2002, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
Have a good trip Kevin and say hi to Susan from me.:)

will do dean. thanks.

gbaker
11-21-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
:D Got an answer today and it's a go!:thumbsup:

Here is what he said.

"Dear Dean,

I don't think there would be any problem employing the Isaac system. As long as the helmet is SA95 or better and the system does not have any negative effects on you or the car, it should be fine. I would bring it and try it out.

Sincerely,

David O'Hara
Skip Barber Racing
School & Series Advisor"

I will get you a helmet size and let you know my flight info in the next couple of days.

Great!:)

Just get me the details on the "where and when" and we'll work something out.

You may want to bring a copy of David O'Hara's letter with you to the school. Otherwise some namby-pamby whiner who's never heard of Isaac may throw cold water on the party.

Dean95CobraR
11-25-2002, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by gbaker
Sure. Better yet, we can deliver one to the track for you to use over the weekend. (How's that for customer service! :D )

The wife and I usually spend weekends at a family beach house near Daytona, about 30 minutes from the track, so it would be no problem to drop one off.

What is your helmet size? Which session are you attending?

Give me a shout off-post (gbaker@isaacdirect.com) and we can set it up.

You're gonna love Skip Barber. I did the Intro school a couple years ago. Great fun.


You've got mail.:D

gbaker
12-18-2002, 10:29 PM
News to all,

I finally had a chance to meet Dean today. He is very fast, and looks just like the photo posted on this thread. :)

kevin
12-20-2002, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by gbaker
News to all,

I finally had a chance to meet Dean today. He is very fast, and looks just like the photo posted on this thread. :)


1. we're oh so sorry:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:


2. that IS scary:eek: :D


if you see him again, tell him hi

gbaker
12-20-2002, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by kevin
1. we're oh so sorry:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:


2. that IS scary:eek: :D


if you see him again, tell him hi

Kevin,

I'll see him this afternoon when I stop by to pick up the system. I'll tell him you said HI. I'll try to get some photos.

I hope the rain clears early enough to give him some track time on his last day.

BTW, you were right when you said he probably wouldn't like having to futz with the system. It takes some getting used to, and you could tell he was frustrated. A couple of the instructors made a point of telling me that they really like the fact there was no vertical piece ala HANS, and that it didn't have to be fitted to the driver. It goes to an observation several people have made: If you have not used a head restraint, you won't like it; if you have, you will.

Also, how was the auction?

97whitevert
12-20-2002, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by kevin
1. we're oh so sorry:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:


2. that IS scary:eek: :D


if you see him again, tell him hi


ditto what kevin said!!!!!!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

ALL of it!!:bounce:

gbaker
12-20-2002, 04:08 PM
Kevin & Lisa,

Dean says Hi.

kevin
12-20-2002, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
Kevin,

I'll see him this afternoon when I stop by to pick up the system. I'll tell him you said HI. I'll try to get some photos.

I hope the rain clears early enough to give him some track time on his last day.

BTW, you were right when you said he probably wouldn't like having to futz with the system. It takes some getting used to, and you could tell he was frustrated. A couple of the instructors made a point of telling me that they really like the fact there was no vertical piece ala HANS, and that it didn't have to be fitted to the driver. It goes to an observation several people have made: If you have not used a head restraint, you won't like it; if you have, you will.

Also, how was the auction?

well if your in the road atlanta area march 8/9, i wear a 7'1/2 full face helmet. i'd be willing to give it a try

Dean95CobraR
12-20-2002, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
News to all,

I finally had a chance to meet Dean today. He is very fast, and looks just like the photo posted on this thread. :)


:D Just remember, it was still early.:rotf:

Dean95CobraR
12-20-2002, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
Kevin,

I'll see him this afternoon when I stop by to pick up the system. I'll tell him you said HI. I'll try to get some photos.

I hope the rain clears early enough to give him some track time on his last day.

BTW, you were right when you said he probably wouldn't like having to futz with the system. It takes some getting used to, and you could tell he was frustrated. A couple of the instructors made a point of telling me that they really like the fact there was no vertical piece ala HANS, and that it didn't have to be fitted to the driver. It goes to an observation several people have made: If you have not used a head restraint, you won't like it; if you have, you will.

Also, how was the auction?


Yep, it was really a pain trying to get it hooked up. Alot of it was because there is such limited space inside the car, that you can not get your hands in the correct position to connect it. I ended up having the crew hook it up for me.

Once it was on, I didn't mind it at all. You still have plenty of head movement but of course you don't have the side to side range as you had before. I would not have any problems wearing it on a regular basis as long as I could get it hooked up.l:thumbsup:

I want to thank Gregg for allowing me to try this system on. At this point, his system is on my want list.

Dean95CobraR
12-20-2002, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
Kevin & Lisa,

Dean says Hi.


Yep, howdy folks. I'm using Marc's laptop in the room. Now that the classes are over, just trying to pass the time.

Sure is nice and warm down here.:D

Cobra-R
12-20-2002, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
Kevin,



I hope the rain clears early enough to give him some track time on his last day.




The rainman strikes again????;) ;)

kevin
12-20-2002, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
:D Just remember, it was still early.:rotf:


welcome back

i just hope you read some of the above posts:D

kevin
12-20-2002, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
[, his system is on my want list. [/B]


dean, this is a safety item

(kevin still harping on safety)

it should be on your NEED list;)

btw, road atlanta is gone from the schedule. dan couldn't make it work:(

kevin
12-20-2002, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by kevin
well if your in the road atlanta area march 8/9, i wear a 7'1/2 full face helmet. i'd be willing to give it a try


never mind on this greg.
got an email saying it's not happening.

but, check your mail for another opportunity;)

gbaker
12-20-2002, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR


I want to thank Gregg for allowing me to try this system on. At this point, his system is on my want list.

Thanks for trying it and giving us your feedback. Thanks also to the Skip Barber crew, especially Don, who let me get in the way now and then.

You and Mark obviously had a good time, and were a good deal quicker today than when I dropped off the system on Wednesday. Glad you enjoyed it.

Also Dean, at some point you should explain to the forum readers why the "Racing's North Turn" restaurant is a "must see" for any race fan. Talk about history.

If any of you are suffering from carbon monoxide withdrawl in a couple of months, stop by for the Rolex 24. Just what the body needs after too much snow.

Dean95CobraR
12-20-2002, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by kevin
i wear a 7'1/2 full face helmet. b


Come on Kevin, we all know your head is bigger than that. ;) :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Dean95CobraR
12-20-2002, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by Cobra-R
The rainman strikes again????;) ;)

No, he wasn't here. :D

Actually, it couldn't have been timed better. We were scheduled to get our "rain line" talk this morning and mother nature responded right on que. It worked out great. A few sessions on a wet track and then it was dry and sunny for the afternoon.:thumbsup:

Dean95CobraR
12-20-2002, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by kevin
dean, this is a safety item

(kevin still harping on safety)

it should be on your NEED list;)

btw, road atlanta is gone from the schedule. dan couldn't make it work:(

Yeah, I know.:rolleyes:

Bummer about RA. I was really looking forward to it.

97whitevert
12-20-2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
Come on Kevin, we all know your head is bigger than that. ;) :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: yeah it can barley fit inside his car, nevermind his 9 3/4 helmet.....;) ;) ;) ;)

Dean95CobraR
12-20-2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
TAlso Dean, at some point you should explain to the forum readers why the "Racing's North Turn" restaurant is a "must see" for any race fan. Talk about history.

If any of you are suffering from carbon monoxide withdrawl in a couple of months, stop by for the Rolex 24. Just what the body needs after too much snow.

Yep, a very cool place and the food was pretty good too. This restaurant is located at the north turn on the dayton beach course. Had a lot of cool pictures of the old track. Even if you're not a big Nascar fan, you have to appreciate it for all the racing history.

Gregg was nice enough to invite us to dinner at this very special place.

Like I told Gregg at dinner, I don't think my wife would appreciate another race trip to Florida. I would love to come though.:)

Dean95CobraR
12-20-2002, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by 97whitevert
yeah it can barley fit inside his car, nevermind his 9 3/4 helmet.....;) ;) ;) ;)

:thumbsup: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

97whitevert
12-20-2002, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by kevin
never mind on this greg.
got an email saying it's not happening.

but, check your mail for another opportunity;)

bummer about RA.......:( :(

97whitevert
12-20-2002, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
:thumbsup: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :D:D dean-- chocolate says hey!!!

Cobra-R
12-21-2002, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
No, he wasn't here. :D

Actually, it couldn't have been timed better. We were scheduled to get our "rain line" talk this morning and mother nature responded right on que. It worked out great. A few sessions on a wet track and then it was dry and sunny for the afternoon.:thumbsup:

Thats great to hear that you have honed your skills to get rain on que now. ;)

What did you guys drive for cars? You gotta give us summery of what you did and learned. Inquiring minds wana know. :D

Cobra-R
12-21-2002, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by 97whitevert
yeah it can barley fit inside his car, nevermind his 9 3/4 helmet.....;) ;) ;) ;)


:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Kevin,
You notice that I didn't say anything mean to you big brudder, but it was pretty funny so I had to laugh. :D

kevin
12-21-2002, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
Come on Kevin, we all know your head is bigger than that. ;) :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :doubt: :doubt: :doubt: :doubt:

it's the padding dean:D

kevin
12-21-2002, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by 97whitevert
yeah it can barley fit inside his car, nevermind his 9 3/4 helmet.....;) ;) ;) ;)

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: ;)

kevin
12-21-2002, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by 97whitevert
bummer about RA.......:( :(

yea:(

but a reasonable alternative has presented it's self, i'll say what later;)

kevin
12-21-2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Cobra-R
:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Kevin,
You notice that I didn't say anything mean to you big brudder, but it was pretty funny so I had to laugh. :D


my considerate brudder bubba:thumbsup:

Dean95CobraR
12-22-2002, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by 97whitevert
:D:D dean-- chocolate says hey!!!


Oops, got off the 'puter too quick. Tell him I said "HI" too!:)

Dean95CobraR
12-22-2002, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by Cobra-R
Thats great to hear that you have honed your skills to get rain on que now. ;)

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
Grrrrrrr..........


Originally posted by Cobra-R
What did you guys drive for cars? You gotta give us summery of what you did and learned. Inquiring minds wana know. :D

Here is the car.
http://www.skipbarber.com/images/vehicles/fd_front34.jpg

It only had a little Neon engine making about 140hp but when the car only weighs 1100lbs, it moves pretty good.

Besides Marc and I, we had 6 other people in our class. It was a small class but that meant plenty of track time. We had 2 young girls from Puerto Rico. One was a karting champion in the girls division and the other one was her sister. She raced karts too. We had another guy who was local that was also a kart racer.One guy was from the Northeast and a mortgage banker and neither one had been on the track before. There was a young kid from Mini Soda who planned on racing in some SCCA class at Road America. Evidentyl his whole family races so he is the last in line. We had a wide range of experience.

I'll just go over the in car sessions since the class room talk was pretty much standard stuff.

The first day we did a little first gear autocross track. It let us get use to the steering, braking and acceleration. The brakes were manual and it was surprising how stiff the pedal was. Once you got used to them, they would really haul the car down though. The next operation was to practice our double clutching. The trannys did not have syncros so you had to learn to double clutch. It didn't take me too long to figure out how to do it when I would do it casually and had time to think about it. The real problem was when you really had to haul the car down and then do it. My feet and hands were flying all over the place. Sometimes getting it right and sometimes not. It is one of those things that I will continue to do in the Mustangs though. I want to get good at it. The tranny was one of those things that I never did get a good feeling for. I was missing shifts all through the entire school.

The second day concentrated on braking and trailbraking exercises. This was really tough to get right. Trailbraking was always something that I've always hesitated on doing in the Mustang but now I was forced to do it. They were not happy till you really swung the rear end around and powered out of the corner. The more out of control you actually felt, the more they were happy. The had some great exercises that kept you braking deeper and deeper into the corner. I would have to say the trailbraking aspect was the most benificial to me. It can really get your car to rotate instead of totally relying on your front tires.

The third day started out with our rain line talk. I had heard a lot of things there were saying before but when I got out on the track, it really happened just like they said. It was a pretty good time. We then had a few mock race starts and then the real fun began. Through out the first 2 days, everytime you made a lap, you had to stop to get feedback. Well, now they allowed us to keep making laps and also the ablility to pass on the long straight. Passing doesn't seem to be a big deal until you are with cars with the exact same hp as you are in. This meant that you had to make up your time in the corners and under braking. We had a couple of 20 minute sessions and I had a blast. I will be getting a tape of the last session so I can't wait to see it.

One of the best things was getting to run on the Rolex 24hr course. Too bad they had to pace us so we couldn't go flat out. I was still doing around 110 going into the high banks. What a rush!! It is something everyone has to do at least once. The incar cameras just don't do it justice.:thumbsup:

97whitevert
12-22-2002, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Cobra-R
:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Kevin,
You notice that I didn't say anything mean to you big brudder, but it was pretty funny so I had to laugh. :D yeah butt YOU were the one who laughed "at his big head" sticking out the window at the beach...... :eek: :eek:

97whitevert
12-22-2002, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by kevin
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: ;) awwwwwwwww...... you know know that i.... :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

sorry just couldn't keep a straight face there....:rotf: :rotf:

97whitevert
12-22-2002, 05:27 PM
sounds good dean!!!!!! like ALOT of fun!!

kevin
12-22-2002, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
They were not happy till you really swung the rear end around and powered out of the corner. The more out of control you actually felt, the more they were happy.
]

welcome to cobra driving dean;)

glad you had fun and learned at the same time.

Cobra-R
12-22-2002, 09:57 PM
Sounds fun, Dean.
Man, I sure do miss the track........is winter over yet?:( :( :(

svt_coupe
12-22-2002, 10:49 PM
Dean - very glad to hear you had an awesome time!! I'm envious of your time in one of those cars. Talking about making you smooth....!!

If you had to highlight one particular aspect about the formula cars, what would be the single most impressive thing about the cars??

Greg - If you are still reading this thread, I apologize for not getting back to you after you were so nice to offer a demo unit at the NASA awards ceremony. I started communications about the device with the Virgina Director. However, I dropped the ball when my sponsor (read: my day job) got busy. Sorry for the sudden lack of communication on my part...

Bryan

gbaker
12-23-2002, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by svt_coupe
Dean - very glad to hear you had an awesome time!! I'm envious of your time in one of those cars. Talking about making you smooth....!!

If you had to highlight one particular aspect about the formula cars, what would be the single most impressive thing about the cars??

Greg - If you are still reading this thread, I apologize for not getting back to you after you were so nice to offer a demo unit at the NASA awards ceremony. I started communications about the device with the Virgina Director. However, I dropped the ball when my sponsor (read: my day job) got busy. Sorry for the sudden lack of communication on my part...

Bryan

Bryan,

No problem. Everyone is busy this time of the year. Just keep me informed.

This car was the first purpose-built race car I had ever driven. That's what I found most impressive. If it isn't needed, it doesn't have it, including fenders, windshield, tranny syncros, rubber/urethane suspension parts. It's very responsive. I got back into my 3 series after the class and it felt like a brick on marshmellows.

Dean95CobraR
12-23-2002, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by svt_coupe
If you had to highlight one particular aspect about the formula cars, what would be the single most impressive thing about the cars??
Bryan

I would have to say predictability. I always knew what the car would do according to my inputs. I really can't say that I was ever surprised at something the car did although hitting one of the high rumble strips at the apex did jolt me a little more than expected. I'm sure everyone feels (or should feel) the same about the car they are driving but it's something that's hard to describe.

The balance was incredible also. It was great to drive a car that didn't want to push the front out. It's like Gregg said, it is so responsive. I'm sure getting back into a Mustang will be quite the change.

Before this class, I never even thought about racing open wheel but know the thought has crossed my mind. I'm sure once I jump into the Mustang, those thoughts will leave once again. :thumbsup:

Dean95CobraR
12-23-2002, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Cobra-R
Sounds fun, Dean.
Man, I sure do miss the track........is winter over yet?:( :( :(


You would have loved it Brian. I wish all of you could have been there.:thumbsup:

Dean95CobraR
12-23-2002, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by kevin
welcome to cobra driving dean;)

glad you had fun and learned at the same time.


:rotf: Thanks.

I'm not sure that I would have had quite the success with a cobra beast like yours. :eek:

Dean95CobraR
12-23-2002, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by kevin
yea:(

but a reasonable alternative has presented it's self, i'll say what later;)


Hmmmmm, when exactly will this alternative present itself??:what:

Dean95CobraR
12-27-2002, 01:46 PM
Gregg just sent me this picture. :D

gbaker
12-27-2002, 02:16 PM
Man, that guy looks fast! :bounce:

kevin
12-27-2002, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
Gregg just sent me this picture. :D


LOOK FORWARD DEAN :eek: :eek: ;) at the speeds it "looks" like you're going:D

i agree gregg, the car doo look fast (for a green car):D ;)

97whitevert
12-27-2002, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by gbaker
Man, that guy looks fast! :bounce: fast???? dean ? are you sure? he sure looks like, well.... not fast there....;) ;) :D :D :D