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View Full Version : Possibile to ruin hawk blacks getting them to hot?


Calvin_1976
01-27-2003, 09:45 AM
I have my car back with a new air to oil cooler :bounce:, but the brakes sound terribile now. I know I got them really hot at CMP but they never faded on me. However now they sounds like a train coming to a stop and seem to stick when stopped. I planned to take them off this week and put street pads back on but now I wonder if I shouldnt just ditch whats left of that set of blacks all together.

Calvin_1976
01-27-2003, 03:06 PM
Nevermind I talked to the place I bought the pads from. They tell me once the pads get to hot they break down and stick to the rotors. The residue left behind has to be turned off and it should solve the sticking pad problem. Depending on how the pads look I might have to just ditch them.

kevin
01-27-2003, 04:41 PM
where they new pads for this event?

i ask because the blues will squeak when runing on the street. the reason being they need heat to get them working. when they're cold they can squel. street pads are made to not squeal when lightly used (street use)

Calvin_1976
01-27-2003, 04:47 PM
They were new for the event. Its beyond squel its more like an awful groan.

sn8kbit
01-27-2003, 04:49 PM
just a shot in the dark here based on assumption, but i don't think i'd go turn them.

after a weekend at road america, i had a white residue left from the blues. driving back home after the event with street pads cleaned that up. when you turn the rotor, you reduce the mass, reducing the amount of heat transfer, no?

Calvin_1976
01-27-2003, 04:57 PM
I could try street pads to clean the surface up. What about lightly sanding the surface maybe?

Dean95CobraR
01-27-2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Calvin_1976
I could try street pads to clean the surface up. What about lightly sanding the surface maybe?


I would try sanding before I would turn the rotors. I would also check out the surface of the pads and if they are glazed, you might want to try sanding them some too.

STU
01-27-2003, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
I would try sanding before I would turn the rotors. I would also check out the surface of the pads and if they are glazed, you might want to try sanding them some too.

You can forget sanding the pads. I bought a new belt for my belt sander after lightly trying that on one pad. :(

I have used both Blacks and Blues and their stopping ability is about the same. The Blues are more durable than the blacks on our heavy cars. The Blacks may chunk pieces off a little because they are rated for lighter cars.

Neither pad is ment to be used on the street. When cold they grind and sound like a brake lathe and are very hard on the rotors. I never had a Hawk Black or Blue pad fade on me.

You should buy an extra set of rotors and street pads and swap when through at the track. That was my process. I always removed the wheels to give them a good cleaning inside anyway. Did not take long to swap the rotors and pads with pratice.

Calvin_1976
01-27-2003, 09:16 PM
I changed the front pads out after work and took some pictures of the blacks.

http://www.opieracing.com/joel/mvc-001f.jpg

http://www.opieracing.com/joel/mvc-002f.jpg

http://www.opieracing.com/joel/mvc-003f.jpg

http://www.opieracing.com/joel/mvc-004f.jpg

http://www.opieracing.com/joel/mvc-005f.jpg

http://www.opieracing.com/joel/mvc-006f.jpg

http://www.opieracing.com/joel/mvc-007f.jpg

http://www.opieracing.com/joel/mvc-008f.jpg

http://www.opieracing.com/joel/mvc-009f.jpg

http://www.opieracing.com/joel/mvc-010f.jpg

SIUNARA
01-27-2003, 09:43 PM
I wish this board was a "scratch and sniff" board...I'd be in heaven right about now!! :D ;) :thumbsup:

Nothing like the smell of cooked CMP brake pads!! :firebounc

Calvin_1976
01-27-2003, 09:57 PM
I could ship them to you. Then you can keep them in a bag to sniff at your leisure. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

STU
01-27-2003, 10:06 PM
They look pretty normal. You can see the chunking on the edges I was refering to. The cracks are normal. You have a couple more events left in them yet. I used to get 6 track days out of a set.

Calvin_1976
01-27-2003, 10:11 PM
I took a little trip out in the country on the way home today to get them to track temps and they still made an awful noise (still stop like a champ). I am going to get the rears out before to long and if they are good then I will save them all for another day. Those saw around 100-120 miles on CMP. :bounce:

kevin
01-28-2003, 03:00 AM
all i can say about your photos - shame on you. how dare you post photos like that? you make me ill. i can't take it anymore. those photos remind me i've not been on the track sinc eoctober, i'm gettin a terrible case of the shakes. convulsions are next. i can't take it anymore. somebody save me. i need the nearest track.. help..........................





for those who know me, i presume you understand. for those of you who don't, forgive my wild manner as i've not smelled racing fuel in way too long. i have to sit in my car with my driving suit on making engine noises


i'm insanely jelous :(

Dean95CobraR
01-28-2003, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by STU
The Blues are more durable than the blacks on our heavy cars. The Blacks may chunk pieces off a little because they are rated for lighter cars.


That is exactly what Bill of Apex told me about the Blacks so I never tried them.

Calvin_1976
01-28-2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by kevin
all i can say about your photos - shame on you. how dare you post photos like that? you make me ill. i can't take it anymore. those photos remind me i've not been on the track sinc eoctober, i'm gettin a terrible case of the shakes. convulsions are next. i can't take it anymore. somebody save me. i need the nearest track.. help..........................





for those who know me, i presume you understand. for those of you who don't, forgive my wild manner as i've not smelled racing fuel in way too long. i have to sit in my car with my driving suit on making engine noises


i'm insanely jelous :(

There were only 16 of us there driving. If you timed it just right you could have the entire track to yourself! :D

I havent been to an autox in 4 months. I went with this event so I could try open track in a small group and go burn some tires and brakes. :bounce: :bounce:

Before I start doing more open track I am going to get another set of rotors and some hawk blues. I also plan to stick to schools at VIR so I can get a AAA tow home if I need it. Without a way to tow my car home I just dont think its a good idea for me to go anywhere I cant get a AAA tow home from. To bad this will keep me from going to CMP (unless I am just watching) :( .

johnbasf
01-28-2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by SIUNARA
I wish this board was a "scratch and sniff" board...I'd be in heaven right about now!! :D ;) :thumbsup:

Nothing like the smell of cooked CMP brake pads!! :firebounc :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

svt_coupe
01-29-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Calvin_1976
I took a little trip out in the country on the way home today to get them to track temps and they still made an awful noise (still stop like a champ). I am going to get the rears out before to long and if they are good then I will save them all for another day. Those saw around 100-120 miles on CMP. :bounce:

Unless you are really really really breaking the law ;) , you won't get the pads up to track temps on the street. One of the biggest factors in brake wear is the extended heat build up that the track introduces.

Also, like others have said, I wouldn't turn those rotors. Taking away rotors thickness is not a great idea for a track rotor.

That pad material transfer on the rotors you mentioned is a GOOD thing. That's part of what makes a good race pad work very well. However, race pads will squeal like a banshee (spell much, Bryan?) when cold and destroy those beautiful 13" pizza pies!!! Hence, another reason to have a "track only" set of rotors, like Dave mentioned.

It sounds like you're relatively new to open tracking. You might want to try a street/open track compound rather than a full on race pad. Most that are new to open track don't use the full potential of a race-only pad. To give you an idea, in the last race at VIR north course, my rotors never got over 900 degrees (we used a heat sensitive paint to test the temps) - many race pads are good for much higher temps (like 1300, 1400). CMP is murder on brakes though...

However, if you think you are using all of the brake, race pads are obviously a good route to go.

Calvin_1976
01-29-2003, 03:41 PM
I am very new to open tracking. This was my first trip out. I wanted to run a race pad because I experienced bad fade at my first autocross at low speeds and never wanted to have it happen at a higher speed. Am I paranoid or should I stick to a street/open track pad for now?

STU
01-29-2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Calvin_1976
I am very new to open tracking. This was my first trip out. I wanted to run a race pad because I experienced bad fade at my first autocross at low speeds and never wanted to have it happen at a higher speed. Am I paranoid or should I stick to a street/open track pad for now?

One thing you can never be in opentracking is "to paranoid" about safety. :thumbsup:

svt_coupe
01-29-2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Calvin_1976
I am very new to open tracking. This was my first trip out. I wanted to run a race pad because I experienced bad fade at my first autocross at low speeds and never wanted to have it happen at a higher speed. Am I paranoid or should I stick to a street/open track pad for now?

I find it surprising that you experienced fade in autocrossing - they generally don't generate enough heat to cause a pad to fade. Fade is sometimes mistaken for boiling and/or old junky fluid that boils at a very low temp and pedal "goes soft."

When is the last time you flushed your brake fluid?

SIUNARA
01-29-2003, 08:48 PM
What pads did you use for autox? I've used a VGX semi-metallic pad as well as a PF-Z and haven't experienced fade...I'm thinking it's more of what Bryan mentioned.

kevin
01-29-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by STU
One thing you can never be in opentracking is "to paranoid" about safety. :thumbsup:


amen. on all apects of safety:thumbsup:

Calvin_1976
01-29-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by svt_coupe
I find it surprising that you experienced fade in autocrossing - they generally don't generate enough heat to cause a pad to fade. Fade is sometimes mistaken for boiling and/or old junky fluid that boils at a very low temp and pedal "goes soft."

When is the last time you flushed your brake fluid?

Stock pads on a 1.1 mile course. Maybe it was just fluid, but I learned quickly to pay more attention to the basics. After that event I started flushing the fluid before every event and inspecting all my pads. I put at least 3 cans of the Ford heavy duty through sometimes more.

97whitevert
01-30-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by SIUNARA
I wish this board was a "scratch and sniff" board...I'd be in heaven right about now!! :D ;) :thumbsup:

Nothing like the smell of cooked CMP brake pads!! :firebounc i can see don now... going to that 'special box' on the shelf....opening it, and taking a big whiff:rotf: :rotf:

flynfink
01-30-2003, 07:22 PM
I agree w/ Bryan. At an autocross (and I've been doing them since the 70's) a good street pad is preferred. You'll never get a race pad up to temp. Flush the fluid w/ high quality stuff. Even at an open track event (not a full on race) you'll still have a hard time getting the race pads to temp.

SNAKE EYES
03-25-2003, 03:11 PM
Would you recommend a Dot 3 brake fluid, such as the Ford High Performance ? Or a Dot 4. I am just auto-xing for right now and will be getting into open tracking later. I really don't want to be switching back and forth on fluids. Everyone's input would be appreciated.

SIUNARA
03-25-2003, 03:19 PM
I've used the Valvoline Synpower Dot 3/4 fluid in both of my cars for autox and opentracking as well as on the street and have not had any problems to date. You can buy it at the local autozone or Pep Boys. Just make sure you flush it from time to time doing autox...and more often if you open track. :)

svt_coupe
03-25-2003, 03:41 PM
The Ford High Performance fluid is more than fine. It will do very well in Autox. Many people use it for open tracking/racing. It's what I used last season.

Now I'm using Cobalt's (www.cobaltfriction.com) new fluid and love the stuff. It's a little bit pricier but it's good stuff.

kevin
03-25-2003, 04:57 PM
i use the ford high performance in the r and wilwood 570 in the race car. both have performed real well. never had an issue with boiling. however, i and many others in here have brake ducting to help cool the brakes. if you're brakes get hot enough, anything will boil. don't forget ss brake lines too.