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KevinGeisbert
07-15-2003, 07:05 PM
Anybody, owned my 93 since June 93. Just wondering...it's a 5.0 so is that a Windsor 5.0? I've never asked before, but I know that Ford had 351 Windsors and 351 Clevelands...what the heck is the difference? Was Windsor the Engineers last name, is Cleveland where the engine was made, designed, ripped off...? Was the Cleveland made by 'Johnny and the Cleveland Steamers'? And so follows, why is the 5.0 called a Windsor. Heck, for my 99 Cobra, what is the 4.6 called? Any help would be appreciated. Rock on.:thumbsup:

Black93Cobra
07-16-2003, 02:47 PM
No exactly sure on whether a 5.0 is a windsor but I'm reasonably sure it is because it uses an inline valve head. The difference between the Windsor and Cleveland Small Block families revolved around the lower main design and the head design. Cleveland engines were so named because they were assembled in Cleveland and utilized 4 bolt mains and canted valve heads. Windsor engines were assembled in Windsor Ontario and utilized 2 bolt mains and inline valve heads. Dimensionally a 351 Cleveland and Windsor were the same but swapping parts was difficult. Valve train components could be made to work together but no one made an intake that would work with Cleveland heads on a Windsor block (or vice versa although I don't know why anyone would attempt that swap!). Cleveland heads came in two variations, a "2 Barrel" or closed chamber head or "4 Barrel" large open chamber head for high-winding Boss 302 and 351 Clevelands. I know that isn't 100% accurate so don't consider it gospel. Just my $.02 :D

BOSSMAN
07-16-2003, 11:55 PM
Your are correct, a 302 is a windsor block. I have a track boss intake that is made to use 351 cleveland 4V heads on a 351 windsor block. This is the basic design that NASCAR uses today. You can build one high reving motor with this combo.

venomous
07-17-2003, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by Black93Cobra
No exactly sure on whether a 5.0 is a windsor but I'm reasonably sure it is because it uses an inline valve head. The difference between the Windsor and Cleveland Small Block families revolved around the lower main design and the head design. Cleveland engines were so named because they were assembled in Cleveland and utilized 4 bolt mains and canted valve heads. Windsor engines were assembled in Windsor Ontario and utilized 2 bolt mains and inline valve heads. Dimensionally a 351 Cleveland and Windsor were the same but swapping parts was difficult. Valve train components could be made to work together but no one made an intake that would work with Cleveland heads on a Windsor block (or vice versa although I don't know why anyone would attempt that swap!). Cleveland heads came in two variations, a "2 Barrel" or closed chamber head or "4 Barrel" large open chamber head for high-winding Boss 302 and 351 Clevelands. I know that isn't 100% accurate so don't consider it gospel. Just my $.02 :D well dang, I'd always thought that the 351 windsor was a small block and the 351 cleveland was a big block? Maybe not. Shows how much I know. :what: :surprise: :confused::doubt:

KevinGeisbert
07-17-2003, 01:43 AM
Thank you very much. About an hour after I posted, I thought that Windsor (across the bridge from Detroit) was a possible assembly point. But glad I asked, and thanks for the detailed response.

So, my 5.0 is a Windsor. I'll tell ya, that thing has 109K on it and has had synthetic in it since the day I bought it in June 93. Sure has been a great car.

Let me ask something else, the heads on my Cobra seem to be about twice the size of the heads on the 5.0. Is the 4.6 considered a big block? (the thought has crossed my mind several times).

Next time I see ya, I'll buy you a beer for answering my knucklehead questions.

cobrabitn
07-17-2003, 12:48 PM
Take it from an old man here who grew up with these engines. While Rob was close on pretty much everything. There is a little more to add to it....

Here goes:

The 302 is a Windsor because they were produced in Windsor Ontario Canada. The 351 Cleveland was produced in Cleveland, Ohio. The Windsor engine started back in the early sixties as a 221 cubic inch engine. It then grew to a 260, 289, 302 and then a 351W.(Taller deck and wider) Both 351 Clevelands and 351 Windsors are SMALL blocks. A big block was considered anything bigger from 352 cubic inches and up. The 352 started in the late fifties/early sixties and was derived from the Y block. The 352 grew into many denominations such as 360, 361, 390, 391, 406, 427, 428.

Therefore your 4.6 is considered a small blcok engine. :)

Moving on to a 351 Clevor which is a 351 W with 351 Cleveland heads and special intake on it. There is a manufacturer that makes the intake for the 351W to accept the 351C heads. The 351C heads are a better breathing head on the exhaust side. The best head is a 351C 2V head instead of the 4V head simply because of the compression ratio.

On the Cleveland side, not all 351C are 4 bolt mains. Only the Hipo 351C's got the 4 bolts mains like the 351CJ in the Mach 1 in 1971. Cougar Eliminators received these blocks too along with some other Mercurys. Dimensionally, the 351W and the 351C are not the same. The bore and stroke are the same and that is about it. Although some parts are interchangeable, machine work would have to be done for a 351W to accept a 351C crank as the snouts are different. The main juornals are bigger on the Cleveland as well as the block being heavier.

Although close, a Boss 302 head is a Cleveland type head but not the same as a 351Cleveland head. The reason you would make a Clevor (Cleveland intake and heads on a 351Windsor) is because the Windsor is lighter and is more durable as you stated below about your 5.0. Clevelands were bad for blowing head gaskets, cracking blocks, and an all gas guzzler.

The Windsor was more of a high winding durable engine that could take punishment all day long. That is why the 302 stayed around so long. My 92 GT got 30 mpg on the highway and that would have been unbelievable in those days.

I hope that helped to explain it better for you? :thumbsup:

KevinGeisbert
07-17-2003, 09:13 PM
Hey, great, I appreciate everyone's response!

A point of clarification...you mentioned that the windsor block went 260, 289, 302, etc. Are you saying that if you look at the block in a 60s Mustang with a 289 it would be the same block that my '93 has [93 with shorter Rods, etc]? If so (which wouldn't surprise me) then Ford sure has gotten a great ROI from the research and development put into the engine back in the 60s.

About big blocks...anything over 352 ci is a big block? Out of idle curiosity, is that also true for GM? Personally, I always thought (on the GM side) that big block was so called because the heads were bigger <this is based on my youthful experience working at a Chev dealer...I'd see a 366 or a 454, they looked a lot more different than a 327 or a 350 so I thought that was the reason for the distinction. I do note that 366, etc. is greater than 352 which is in line with what you say, Cobrabitn...please clarify if you know>.

Lastly, I know we want to keep the standards high on this site, so please forgive the reference to GM (it was a good job because the unreliable GMs kept the service bays full at all times).

Thanks again for the message traffic!

Black93Cobra
07-18-2003, 10:06 AM
Thanks to Tony for correcting my errors and omissions! :D :D

Kevin, you are correct that basically a 289 and a 302 are the same block and parts are interchangeable. There are some slight differences such as Ford changed the rear main seal design to a single piece seal, I believe in the early '80's, because the old two piece seal was prone to leakage. The second major difference that I can think of is the crank balance. I'm not sure of the timeframe but I think it was sometime in the early '80's, Ford switched from a 28 oz imbalance to a 50 oz imbalance. The result is that there are two different crank balances and balancers for small block Fords and you just need to be sure you have the right balancer for your application. By the way, all 5.0's are the 50 oz variety.

I had a 1990 5.0 Coupe with well over 200K and it still ran great when I sold it. Like Tony said, Windsors are very durable and well last a very long time if you maintain them properly.

On the GM side, the vernable small block Chevy started out as a 265 and grew to a 283, 305, 327, 350 and 400 cid. So for GM, a small block is anything up to 400 cid in production form. Of course you can stroke a small black Chevy well beyond 400 cid. I think Chevy's big block came in either 396, 402, 427 or 454 varieties. Chevy also made a big block based on their Y-block design which was the 409. I believe it came in other cubic inch sizes as well but I'm not sure what they are. The engines are entirely different with everything being larger, not just the heads.

Again, this is just based on my limited knowledge. Hope that helps!!