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winddysvt
07-31-2003, 12:48 PM
A new mystery in this case has begun!!!.... :rolleyes:

PICTURES are here:

http://www.svtcobraclub.com/svtbbs2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4487



we later figured out that this is approximately 700-800 feet of a "journey"...


Speed: approx. 55 miles per hour - on the track ....




Conditions: Dry --- however -- ruts located at actual apex --:( track isn't what some of us consider "beginner" friendly ..... or in my case "beginner" going into "intermediate" friendly....


3 laps of continuous "fun" ... except following someone who won't let me -- or those behind me --- pass... driver "behind" me -- I find out later -- was following "My lines".... -- I did have the ability to pass --- but did not feel that driver ahead of me was "willing" -- I hesitated due to "safety".... although I do feel now that I should've done so.... driver ahead of me also had an "instructor" in "shot gun chair" ...... :confused: :doubt:



straight in 5: goes well -- except cannot pass car in front of me (I have less hp but catch up instantly in the turns..) driver will not give signal to pass - instructor also felt the confidence that we needed to pass him...

brakes --- off brakes -- turn in at 6 wide with small amount of throttle to take me towards 7

somewhere in the area of 6-7 I felt an "Imbalance" in the rear - as if the rear tires wre spinning independantly -- very very slight... no drop, no lift == just a slight "Imbalance"...

I WAS ON THE TRACK - in the middle of the track -- headed towards 7 when we "felt" it... --- I had already started backing off the throttle -- however after I felt this "imbalance" I took my foot off completely. (my mistake?) --

DID not Panic -- did not apply brakes. steered in the direction of the spin. etc. etc.



SPUN CLOCKWISE twice -- headed right.

Started coming out of the Spin.

slid left and slightly dropped driver side tires into the "ruts" but not enough to "feel it"..... the car started heading back in the correct direction -- car never completely came off of track -- approximately 1/2 of the tires were off -- no more...

Car headed back left again -- approximately at this time -- there was no longer any steering response.

car spun quickly to the right approximately 30 degrees headed in the wrong direction

continue sliding sideways approximately 100-200 feet --

into grade 6 fence pole. Pole bent sideways -

air bags went off

car got stuck there on the pole....
I do want to mention that this is the back part of the track - located in the drag strip "parking lot" behind the "fencing" .... "make shift" area of the track ...


note: everyone was amazed - ! our Kenny Brown / Tim DalSanto suspension, bracing, cage, etc. etc. helped this car to stay together amazingly well!! thanks guys -- for a very safe car!!
take a look at it --- it should've "crumpled" and it should've been totalled and my driver and I should've been hurt. We walked away without a scratch - and the bracing will allow the car to return!!! :bounce:










but now... to learn from the mistake..... I'm going to school...

but --- opinions please? -

track guru opinions would be especially appreciated.....

:thumbsup:

winddysvt
07-31-2003, 01:39 PM
http://www.geocities.com/winddysvt/FLASH.html?1059669204184

svt_coupe
07-31-2003, 01:57 PM
Did you feel the imbalance and THEN lift? Or was the imbalance come after you lifted.

I'm not really sure since there aren't a lot of details about the actual spin, but it sounds like it was trailing throttle oversteer. This is caused by a sudden lift in the throttle. When a car is in midcorner, and the throttle is on, weight is transfered to the rear of the car. A sudden lift will shift the weight forward (unloading the rear tires) and cause the car to oversteer because of a loss of traction.

Sorry to hear about your car. Very glad you are ok. Just remember - it's metal, you aren't. Metal can be replaced.

winddysvt
07-31-2003, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by svt_coupe
Did you feel the imbalance and THEN lift? Or was the imbalance come after you lifted.

I'm not really sure since there aren't a lot of details about the actual spin, but it sounds like it was trailing throttle oversteer. This is caused by a sudden lift in the throttle. When a car is in midcorner, and the throttle is on, weight is transfered to the rear of the car. A sudden lift will shift the weight forward (unloading the rear tires) and cause the car to oversteer because of a loss of traction.

Sorry to hear about your car. Very glad you are ok. Just remember - it's metal, you aren't. Metal can be replaced. ===============


i never felt the "lift"......

just "imbalance" ---
& then --- my eye viewpoint & seat of the pants viewpoint --
I was ON the track ---- I didn't understand it until later when we walked my path...... that was when I saw that the back left tire had gone off --- ever so slightly...... now, I understand....

Imbalance ---- spin started clockwise -
as the car itself drifted left....
then I either HIT a bump, seam in the "parking lot", or perhaps slightly went off track again and then slid left towards the fence

sn8kbit
07-31-2003, 03:42 PM
Just a quick comment on the traction control.

At my very low experience level, I leave it on as a tool for learning. When it does kick in, I pay attention and find different areas where my car's (every car is different) limit may be in a particular situation. I make it my goal to go faster around, without tripping it, but pushing to the point I last felt it kick in.

Traction Control most likely won't stop a spin, especially in a 'tire-off' situation, but I think if you use it to learn, it can prevent a spin by teaching you certain limit points of your vehicle.

winddysvt
07-31-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by sn8kbit
Just a quick comment on the traction control.

At my very low experience level, I leave it on as a tool for learning. When it does kick in, I pay attention and find different areas where my car's (every car is different) limit may be in a particular situation. I make it my goal to go faster around, without tripping it, but pushing to the point I last felt it kick in.

Traction Control most likely won't stop a spin, especially in a 'tire-off' situation, but I think if you use it to learn, it can prevent a spin by teaching you certain limit points of your vehicle.


===========


thx !!

I've had good and bad results with leaving the traction control on while "performance driving"......

it is difficult to say......

but you feel that if I did have it on I may have spun anyway?

sn8kbit
07-31-2003, 06:29 PM
Traction Control most likely won't stop a spin, especially in a 'tire-off' situation, but I think if you use it to learn, it can prevent a spin by teaching you certain limit points of your vehicle.

SVT_KY
08-01-2003, 08:20 AM
Well, I can only comment from my observations. <grin>

Because of that butt head in front of us, both of us were
being held back and the frustration was rising lap after
lap. The best thing prolly would have been to pit to get
some space in there.

But that is the BIGGER lesson.

From my vantage point of 10 feet behind you, the car
lifted slightly on the pavement "change" and started to
rear drift to the right. I thought you were gonna make
it, but either you lifted a bit more, or the drift continued.

You were then pointed toward the left spot where you
state the wheel left the pavement. At that point, your
car corrected (grin) or counterspun to the left. You came
back across the track (left to right) and were now sliding
sideways in front of me :eek:

I slammed the Brembos, checked the mirrors, and helplessly
watched you guys traverse the track, the grass strip on the
right (I thought you were gonna make it at this point!) and
then it was "oh sheat!" she's not gonna stop. Sliding sideways
into the pole musta been scary ... I recently had an "Excursion"
at 90 mph plus off of I-75, and I know when you stop, you have
no idea how the he!! you got there.

I saw the airbags deploy as I followed through the grass, stopped
and waved down the cars behind us. The corner worker
posted the Yellow almost instantaneously, so the only car
that came behind us at "full speed" was the black Lightning,
and he said he thought at first we had both crashed, cause
the truck was blocking his view of your car.

Anyhow, that's the way I remember it. The only thing that
I would suggest is that we all not let ANYONE dictate how we
drive "on course" ... not instructors, not other drivers, not anyone
but us. (I think all of the instructors have a tendency to "push"
the students to achieve better results, and while some of that is
admirable, it can be dangerous if taken to the extreme.)

Here's the link fo rthe Mid Ohio Event, Bonny ... Hope you and Tim
can make it.....

Very Best Regards,

Clifford the Big Red Ford ....


http://www.tracquest.com/Events/Mi200309.asp

Black Horse
08-01-2003, 12:45 PM
Bonny....

Knowing IRP I think there may be more to it than you realize.....I'm guessing, but it sounds like you spun after the hard right coming down the back straight (turn 6?) into the turn 7 left hander....

This area is notorious for loose material (gravel, rubber, dirt, mud...etc.) on the track, the pavement changes surface from several different years of repaving (mostly ions ago), and is anything but smooth. Throw the track surface and conditons into your slight lifting on the throttle may have just been enough to upset the balance. Once into the spin the parking lot surface is anything but smooth...I can see how things could easily get out of hand.

I have always run at IRP at not much more than 80%....OK there are a few places I dial it up, but it averages to 80%. In turn 7 I back down a notch due to the reduced traction. I also back WAY down at pit entrance (through the concrete walls and at the transistion onto the drag strip). Not much speed to be had here anyway...and I can't tell you how many cars have made their "marks" here. The other area that I back off a bit is the combination right before the back straight. Its real easy to drop a wheel off track, correct, drop 2 more off, bounce back on and slam into the concrete wall of the oval track backstraight. Just ask the guy in the brand new '03 (with under 200 miles on it) that found this penomenum at the same event last year.

I still think you did good. You understood what the car was doing, you reacted appropriately...the stars and moon was just not in your position that day. You have the basics - smooth in, fast out.....smooth is fast....just keep practicing, seat time is everything.

winddysvt
08-01-2003, 01:50 PM
wow --

you guys are awesome!!


Cliff said it above ... what I should've done....

was get off the track and then get back on it....

I did take off my description above as to what may have been part of what led to it

--- but as Cliff said --- well, some people just aren't very nice....

so --- off the track and back on again will be my next "answer"...

Flash does not have the HP that these supercharged Cobra's have --- but I'm wondering if they had the safety equipment that we had to hold the car together so well....

Safety first!:thumbsup: :bounce:

winddysvt
08-01-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by SVT_KY
. <grin>

Because of that butt head in front of us, both of us were
being held back and the frustration was rising lap after
lap. The best thing prolly would have been to pit to get
some space in there.

But that is the BIGGER lesson.

Here's the link fo rthe Mid Ohio Event, Bonny ... Hope you and Tim
can make it.....

Very Best Regards,

Clifford the Big Red Ford ....


http://www.tracquest.com/Events/Mi200309.asp

we will look into the mid-Ohio event --- I think were gonna be a bit low on funds for awhile... but we shall see what happens!

Thank you for the description ---

I knew you were behind me, but sheesh

I didn't realize that you were that close! Ya did a good job at avoiding me!! And yes ---- that must've been quite frustrating not to be able to "help"....

its amazing when you hear what was going on "behind the scene".....
:eek: :doubt:

winddysvt
08-01-2003, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Black Horse
Bonny....

.

I still think you did good. You understood what the car was doing, you reacted appropriately...the stars and moon was just not in your position that day. You have the basics - smooth in, fast out.....smooth is fast....just keep practicing, seat time is everything.

==============


hmmmmm....
excellant description Dave.....

thanks!! I know now there was more than one cause ---

what I have to do is:

learn from it and
go to a driving course that can help to teach me how to use my "defensive" actions correctly........

Tom asked me if it was fun to "spin"...

well, yes and no .......

yes if you don't hit anything

but


NO --- because it damaged our "baby".....


my next spin is gonna be where there's nothing to "hit"...........
:burnout:

SVT_KY
08-02-2003, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by winddysvt
==============
my next spin is gonna be where there's nothing to "hit"......


Ummmmm ... can I be in FRONT next time????? LOL

Just for reference ... Here's my little "excursion"

http://www.f150online.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96343

Cliff
:eek:

2KWhiteSnake
08-02-2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by svt_coupe
Did you feel the imbalance and THEN lift? Or was the imbalance come after you lifted.

I'm not really sure since there aren't a lot of details about the actual spin, but it sounds like it was trailing throttle oversteer. This is caused by a sudden lift in the throttle. When a car is in midcorner, and the throttle is on, weight is transfered to the rear of the car. A sudden lift will shift the weight forward (unloading the rear tires) and cause the car to oversteer because of a loss of traction.

Sorry to hear about your car. Very glad you are ok. Just remember - it's metal, you aren't. Metal can be replaced.

Heyya Shugg,
I think you nailed it. Took me a while to break the habit of lifting when I had throttle oversteer. At my last event we worked on that a lot. It's just a habit, and I still catch myself lifting when I shouldn't, but I think all those rain weekends we had at CMP helped break me of 98% of it. After "forcing" the car to oversteer, we practiced maintaining throttle and opening the steering wheel. The car would "jump" right back into position for the most part. I'm a novice, but throttle is everything when maintaining balance in our cars. I have an 01 and the IRS is unpredictable, even at low speeds. The most important thing was that you weren't hurt. Good luck in your next event.

winddysvt
08-04-2003, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by SVT_KY
Ummmmm ... can I be in FRONT next time????? LOL


Cliff
:eek:

===========


yes Cliff ---

you can be in front. If you would've been in front -- you would've passed that guy like I should've and perhaps this wouldn't have happened.

Next time --- I'm off the track and getting back on again. I wasn't thrilled with the "entrance" and that was one bad reason why I didn't want to get off and "get a better position"....
WRONG.............

I should've stayed in "beginner" because I later found out that they were allowing passing and some of the rules were not as I would've expected anyway.... last year, I went in beginning and was told I should be in intermediate. The beginner class -- was really beginner like it should be...

I believe because of the layout of this track -- and a few other reasons it was difficult for them to "decipher" exactly what was going on... so --- no blame on anyone except myself ....... "listen to my voice of reason".....

From now on --- it depends upon the track.

winddysvt
08-04-2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by 2KWhiteSnake
After "forcing" the car to oversteer, we practiced maintaining throttle and opening the steering wheel. The car would "jump" right back into position for the most part. I'm a novice, but throttle is everything when maintaining balance in our cars. I have an 01 and the IRS is unpredictable, even at low speeds. The most important thing was that you weren't hurt. Good luck in your next event. ===========

- I appreciate it -- thx for all the tips!! time for more "practice"... you can never get enough :bounce:
:jawdrop: however - I need help "again"....
this is important!! :eek:
my "description" --- my original description was incorrect..
I've been up every night rehashing-
:doubt:
reenacting this because something wasn't right..... :mad:
I know everyone says NOT to "rehash"... but I had to! This is a mystery for me.. :lurk:
-- most of you guys know me -- I am a careful driver and I did not pass the guy ahead of me for "safety" and for "courtesy" reasons...

PLEASE READ MY DESCRIPTION --- or - REREAD MY DESCRIPTION........

I know now that it DID NOT happen because I went "off the track" .... or "dropped a wheel" - and definitely not because I was in pursuit of someone !! thats is NOT
the reason.....

basically -- in "reenacting" the event over and over in my mind.... the description from Cliff.... what I "thought" happened --- isn't what happened. it took me almost a week of being awake at night to figure it out.... that is when I do my "best" thinking...

the slight spinning of the tires
the slight "imbalance"
happened after coming out of turn 5 -- I was in the middle of the track -- headed STRAIGHT in the correct direction towards the next turn!! REPEAT --- i was in the exact spot on the track where I should've been --- track on both sides of me when...



my rear tires spun
ON THE TRACK :confused:
as if something had gone "wrong" ... something "failed".... :confused: or, as if perhaps I hit a "grease" spot or oil in the middle of the track. :confused:
I was well away from the turn and at that turn there is no possible way I could've gone off track at that point. That's why my instructor and I were "bewildered" .... :confused: :doubt:
in walking my tracks later something just didn't look right.
repeat:
the going off the track did not happen until

AFTER I SPUN !! :burnout:

yes -- I know that I probably "spun "because I lifted my foot off the throttle --

however :( :confused:
- the mystery as to
exactly what happened to the rear at the time of "imbalance" remains a mystery --

why did the car become IMBALANCED ???



did something fail? :confused:


did another car "spill" oil and my rear tires "hit" it -- ?? My instructor felt that I was very smooth and all was going well -- I know that there was track on
both sides of us when we felt the "imbalance"... almost as if I was driving along merrily -- and then hit a "patch of ice" -- i know that feeling -- and that is what it felt like....


======== this was something I hadn't "learned" this was something I was not prepared for --- dropping a tire? yes --- but losing balance right on the track?

no ----- it never even came up in my mind.....

:confused: :confused:

by the way --- I feel that most of you would probably do the same thing --- you wouldn't give it up until you had the "answer".....

winddysvt
08-04-2003, 03:07 PM
----

my suspicions are turning into
"actuality"
thanks to further investigations into "what happened" to cause the initial "imbalance"...

we will solve this mystery!!

:thumbsup: :bounce:

flynfink
08-05-2003, 04:18 PM
So this happened at IRP? In the carrosel??? Yeah, I crashed there in 1988.. in a FF. It's called marbles.... Gotta watch out for them.

winddysvt
08-15-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by flynfink
So this happened at IRP? In the carrosel??? Yeah, I crashed there in 1988.. in a FF. It's called marbles.... Gotta watch out for them.

===========



1988?
:confused:


and no --
it didn't happen in the carousel...

that was my favorite part of the track! :bounce: