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wreckm
02-18-2004, 01:49 AM
Okay have I been sleeping, when did we start an American Iron Southeast? What will that do to the Va. chapter of NASA if our NC buddies leave and go south! Will we have a runoffs as does SCCA? Just wandering as usual!

johnbasf
02-18-2004, 09:30 AM
LOL, who knows. :rotf: I just want to see you in a suit again. :thumbsup:

COBRA #17
02-19-2004, 11:22 PM
Sounds like this should be asked on a NATIONAL SCALE !!!

Wait it may have been, with no answer???? :D

Maybe it needs to be asked again???

Or is AI itself going SOUTH !!!! How about NASAFOURUMS.COM

ANYBODY ???

:321: :fart: :bs: :doubt:


Just an old nobody ???:rolleyes:

johnbasf
02-19-2004, 11:46 PM
I was told NASA SE AI was a provisional series this year. There will be no points races this year in the SE. That came from NASA West Coast. Will may have saved those e-mails, I didn't. Welcome back James.

wreckm
02-20-2004, 10:58 AM
I will show you the suit again the next time I get to see you dancing!!You are a man of many different talents. Good thing you can drive! Are you going to do any of the SE races?Are you going to make an appearance Sunday at VIR? James has a good point, I think someone needs to step up to the plate!

johnbasf
02-22-2004, 01:41 AM
I'll do Road Atlanta. That's a points race for AI East.

nasava
02-23-2004, 10:40 AM
Guys,

Just as a clarification, the southeast chapter of NASA WILL NOT have it's own series for at least one year. There will be three racing weekends for SE while the chapter gets started but there will no actuall SE series championship. Jim, I'm sure, have trophies for the individual events, though.

The reason that NASA has chosen to do it this way is so as not to dilute the current mass of AI competitors that are in the Va region. We were afraid that running two series would decrease the fields and that the momentum that the series has would be compromised. We think that AI can grow large enough this season that it can support respectable fields next year in each chapter and have HUGE fields for combination events between chapters.

Growth is great but we prefer it to be slow and steady (ie consistent). No competitor wants to build/campaign a car for thousands of $$$ and not be comfortable that the series won't be around or as strong for years to come. With growth there are growing pains, some of which I have seen first hand, but all here at NASA have a long term view of the organization and our series.

Peace,
Chris Cobetto

nasava
02-23-2004, 12:25 PM
Oops I forgot to add.

With regards to the runoffs type of event. Yes, this is in the cards and being worked on right now by NASA.

Where would you like to have them?

Chris

johnbasf
02-23-2004, 04:33 PM
I was told that there wouldn't be runoffs because of the induviduals running the different regions. None of the regional directors wanted to let "their" AI guys "leave" the region to race. I'm not flaming here Chris but that's what is going around.

While your here, will AI be going to VIR labor day weekend??

nasava
02-23-2004, 05:10 PM
This is the basic idea of how NASA and its series works.

Each chapter has or will have its own particular regional type of championship. It's not that we don't want to let the racers run outside the regions we just want to make sure that AI stays within NASA sanctioned events. There can't be a series without a chapter. If drivers want to pick a series to run in great. If they just want to check out a bunch of tracks without worrying about a series championship then thats cool too. All we are saying is that NASA series run at NASA events.

Toward the end of the year, those that have participated in a certain amount of events in the regions will be invited to the National Championship. Keep in mind that creating a National Championship event is not as easy as it sounds and we want to make sure we can make it work well for everyone because of the travel that some are going to have to do. As to whether this happens in 04 or 05 remains to be seen. The key is to have a good sponsor that can subsidize things like tow funds, etc. AI is now viewed by the sponsors as a strong entity because it has been around for a few years. The marketing guy at wilwood said that he had been watching the series for 3 years and now felt confident that we were here for the long haul. He wants to sponsor the series. We all have to just keep on the path and more good things will happen.

Stay tuned because we are offering the position of AI National Director to someone that has a passion for this series and has shown great dedication. This will allow more time for NASA national to put together programs like a national championship.

VIR? There are still some things that have to be worked out before there is a commitment, but...your Labor day BBQ will probably be started with race gas.

Peace,
Chris

COBRA #17
02-23-2004, 08:46 PM
That's strange I have heard alot different !!!

We had the guy at the helm of AI that could have taken it to a pro level and you guys run him off !!!!! :(
if not for his hard work AI wouldn't be even close to what it is today !!! It isa shame it has gone the route it has!!!

If NASA keeps things going the way they are they will run AI off too!!!

For example the champions of AI weren't even posted on the web site nor any where else??? If we are so important where is the publicity ??????

Some one is scared that "they" are going to loose a couple $$$.

As for the labor day thing. COME ON CHRIS TELL US THE TRUTH !!! PLEASE !!!!

I still think this needs to be on the national; website !! It all needs to be out in th open !!!!! The curtin needs to be pulled !!!

I'm not flaming either I just want the truth out in the open! I am also dissapointed IN A BIG WAY!!! I worked my ass off last season and I haven't gotten anything out of it other than being accused of cheating. No plaque, no publicity from NASA other than my name listed in grassroots.
GRIGGS has put my name in a couple magazines. I thought this was PRO racing. I realize we don't pay much to race but HELL NASA has made no attempt to advertise or even acknowledge my acomplishment. Heck it didn't even make our own website.

I'm not whining or tooting my own horn but what does our sponsors get out of helping or having contingincies if it is not published ????

just an old has been !!!

nasava
02-24-2004, 12:12 AM
Hoover,

You have a huge plaque that you didn't pick up at the awards ceremony on January 10th. We would have sent it out to you prior to the ceremony but I really thought you would be there. Happy to send it to you. I apologize for not having it out to you sooner. They are slated to go out this week. We are a small business and sometimes we just don't move as fast as what some people expect.

I always tell the truth about the information I have.

Pro Racing can mean many things. If you win contingency money or prizes you are, technically, a pro. If you are expecting AI to be pro in the Grand Am sense of the word then you have missed the idea of NASA and American Iron altogether. Road racing had two levels for a long time. There was the very amateur SCCA style racing (although some runoff budgets could be considered pro level) and then there was IMSA, Grand Am, ALMS and World Challenge on the very expensive pro side. NASA was designed to build a "middle class" of racing. NASA was also designed to bring the fun back into racing and help the amateur level driver to get maybe a little bit back for his efforts and potentially get some exposure that could be turned into sponsorship along the way. If ones annual racing budget is $250,000-$1,000,000 and you don't mind paying $750 on a regular basis for entry fees then NASA, as it currently exists, will probably not fit your tastes. If your annual racing budget is $10,000 to $50,000 and prefer a $225 -$250 entry fee then NASA probably will. Which "pro" level are you wanting AI to be?

As far as the champions not being listed. You are right and thank you for calling it to my attention in a public forum. The webmaster has had that information for a month. Unfortunately he is a volunteer and his real life has delayed him from posting it in a timely fashion.

As I write this I am dismayed at the tone that you take. You cannot just say "I'm just a country bumpkin" at the end of a statement and believe that gives you the right to disrespect someone else because you don't agree or don't understand decisions that are made. My mother raised me to be respectful, even if I didn't agree. I was taught to listen because even though I may go into an argument with one opinion the other person may have a good point that I hadn't thought of.

And just as an aside. I know you won that championship fair and square no matter what anyone says. Shuggy knows too. I have fun every time I get into a car on track. If you are not having fun as a racer with my organization I am truly sorry because I really try to have events that are fun. There is not a perfect sanctioning body or series out there. All of them come with their own issues. We are no exception. There were over 300 cars throughout this past weekend at VIR. I had students, instructors, Grand Am, ALMS, SCCA, SCCS and other "pro" driverl come to me and say that it was one of the finest run events that they had ever been to. I try to make everyone feel welcome. I'm sorry if you don't.

I will not respond any more to any posts with the same disrespecful and accusatory tone. If you would like to discuss issues positively I am always available.



Peace,
C

cobrabitn
02-24-2004, 01:12 AM
I do not know most of you, I am not familiar with NASA or their rules and regulations but I do know this. Putting on an event is stressful. It takes a lot of time, energy, and stamina to put on any kind of track event. Oh, it looks easy but believe me, it isn't. It's worrying about this or worrying about that? Will the event be successful? will it pay for itself? will everyone have a good time?

Organizing and paying bills, collecting fees, depositing funds, putting together the right staff, and a hundred other things that go along with it.

I take my hat off to anyone who can put on a successful event and please the majority of the participants. Too many times many of the people that give you something you would not ordinarily have are not thanked enough, instead they have their flaws pointed out to them. (We got this last year at CMP) It's okay to be constructive but not to the point where the fun stops. Enjoy your series, enjoy your friendship, and thank the people that do this so that you have the opportunity to enjoy your vehicle and make new friends.

Thanks for your ear!:)

justagt
02-24-2004, 01:34 AM
Chris -

Maybe you can answer some of the questions that I had asked of the other officials, but was unable to get a clear answer on.

First off, I feel like the 'growing' of AI has hit a big brick wall due to some of the happenings of the off season. Some good things, like Jim tapping into a new market with the SE region and promoting AI, NASA, etc., and some bad things, such as the 'changing of the guard' with AI. I really felt like at this time last year that we were sitting on something special about to explode in popularity. Think about it.... AI East has only been around two years and we have tracks calling and asking us to race at their weekends.

I can't think of a way to ease into this so I will be blunt..... when did AI EAST become a VA region series, i.e. a series that only runs with that region. That is how is seems to be now. With Jim only having a few AI races, why not keep AI East as one group and race with his region instead of, for example, going to Summit Point four times? Can someone please answer that?

I guess I see it like this........ some will go to the SE region to run and some will run with VA. I think it will split to core group into two smaller groups. Some may do it due to less travel time, some will do it for variety and to drive a different track. But overall, it doesnt' do much to make AI look good. We would leave a much better impression with a 25 car field at every race than 10 here and then 12 there.

I understand this is a business for you and respect that. In fact I have given my part and still dont' have my instructor hat. :D But if NASA truly wants the sport to grow, how can they justify not going to the new, untapped markets to show everyone what we are all about. Then, from a driver stand point, IMHO, it keeps it more interesting than going to the same place 4 times.

I know tracks are hard to get and schedule and I know the I keep mentioning Summit, but 4 trips up there is over 60 hours of driving for us NC folk. I know a common response to that may be 'well, then dont' go' but that really isnt' good business. Please understand that I am not trying to take away from you and the VA region.

Also, we had an advertisement and schedule in Grassroots last year. Can we expect the same this year under new management?

You mention sponsors for a national runoff. Who would get these sponsors? I had a chance to be the AI Director for the SE region, but mainly dur to time restraints I wasn't able to. Also, to be honest, I didn't want to deal with some of the political crap that I have seen in NASA. Kind of back to my question.... since directors can't get sponsors and series directors can't get them, who would? The west coast national guys? Fine, but I know for a fact that they were sent info weeks ago about some parties showing interest in sponsoring AI SE and nothing has happened with it.

The national director thing is a neat idea, but really, what kind of decision making ability would he have, no matter how dedicated or devoted he is? Besides, I think we should fix everything on a smaller scale before they talk about a national runoff.

Oh, I think my membership ran out. Do they send me an email or do I just go to the main site and renew?

Finally, I understand that this is a business for many involved. BUT at this point in the series, I feel like that we are being robbed of some of the chances we the series have to promote ourselves. The best example I can think off is racing at Watkins Glen. I know it isn't a NASA region event, but it is a new market that hasn't seen us and a great way to promote the series. We need to take every chance we have to make it grow and we aren't 'allowed' to. I know some may feel robbed of money by us doing that, but it is a great opportunity for the series and for NASA. This isn't about the short term. It is about the long term. Even at a place like the Glen, we still have our NASA patches, logos, stickers, and AI banner hanging up promoting AI and NASA. I just find it hard to believe that the series and even NASA would turn that down when you look at the long term gains from it.

Just curious on your thoughts.

nasava
02-24-2004, 04:01 AM
First of all, I'm sorry about the hat. I have many now and new t-shirts too. Email me and we'll get those out to you. I really appreciate your candor and questions. I keep hearing from third parties about grievences out there in the AI community but to date not one person has called or email me with questions.

We DO have something special, but growth doesn't come without some growing pains. I saw this with Honda Challenge last year but, we got things cleaned up and this year looks to be very promising. People just have to hold the course and be patient. Road Racing sucks in the US because too many egos think they have the right idea. All it ends up doing is sending more money to NASCAR.

As far as sponsors go. I have been trying to sell sponsorships since I started with NASA in 99. NASA's growth is making it easier but it is still difficult. The national office actively pursues sponsorships but NASA is just now getting big enough to be taken seriously. Think about the mainstream sponsors you see on cars in Grand AM or ALMS....it's pretty tough itsn't it because there are almost none...and they are on TV. Even so we are looking at several structures of how best to get sponsors.

The misunderstanding is that AI is under new management. Dan Schlickenmeyer is still the rep. and may shortly have greater responsibilities. I know that there is talk out there but let's just say it is easier to change tires than to build a whole car.

All NASA series are designed to support a chapter. You are correct in that this is a business. Starting a chapter is generally a six figure proposition. It is a business with particularly low margins so volume is key. Any sane man would not take this on. I do it because it is a labor of love but in order to make a reasonable living at this one needs to have 8-10 events per year with the series participating in each one or the majority.

Our belief is that racers at this level only have a certain budget that, on average will allow them to run about 8 race weekends. If a chapter needs 8 good events to feed itself but a series only decides to run 4 of those events the overall equation doesn't work.

Last year Dan asked me for a portion of the already low entry fee to help build the series. I trusted Dan and believed in the concept so I agreed. I took less per entry so that AI could grow. When VIR called me to run at Grand Am I called Dan first. Now I am the bad guy because I stuck to the deal and everyone didn't get back $100 but please understand the situation I faced. I was taking a great risk. VIR had extended the offer so late that I had only about 5 days before I had to sign on the dotted line for an event that would cost me into 5 figures, where I had to guarantee 35 entries to the track and do so at a time that was late in the season with championships almost already decided and much of the racer's budget's spent. I also knew that this event would make the regular NASA va events surrounding it suffer. As it turns out,( and I won't get into specific financials because I DO have competitors) if you take the average total entry that AI represented in a regular NASA weekend and multiply by two (CMP and SP) then subtract the ACTUAL net for (cmp, vir and sp) it was a loss. The only way I could justify the loss was to say it was good for the AI series but the truth of the matter is that for the money it was a bad marketing decision. That money could have been spent in many other places that would yield, statistically better exposure. Was it cool to run at Grand Am? Sure, but if looked at from a hard marketing view it was the wrong decision. The same concept applies to having the series run outside of NASA. The Glen is not a new area. NASA NE has existed up there for years but they just can't get dates at the tracks because there are so few and the weather limits the season. The loss represented to the home chapter, in my opinion, does not justify the name recognition of patches on suits or stickers on cars and besides, what other sanction wants to help grow a competing sanction? IF NASA NE can't get dates then who does name recognition help?

I am the bad guy with regards to VIR grand am, but let me ask you this. Do you believe the AI group would have gotten together and made up the loss that I would have incurred had it not gone well. My guess is no and I wouldn't have expected them to.

The decision about the SE chapter is not one that was done unilaterally. Jim Pantas agreed that things have to build slowly and fully understands the deal.

AI East has really always been the VA series by default. We just had to clarify it when the new chapters were coming on board. NASA-VA carried the NASA torch on the east coast for two years (at some cost) and were the only guys in town until Ohio came on the scene and now the SE. While I encourage new chapters and help them with equipment and advice it is only now, after close to five years of managing events that we are seeing return on a pretty substantial initial investment. It is a delicate balance I would hope that no one would begrudge me making my investment back and creating a living for myself.

The Glen is cool. I love to race there but without a healthy chapter a healthy series is not possible. I believe in giving savings to the racer in the form of lower entry fees. We could raise the fees and spend more on marketing but I think the best marketing is word of mouth and reasonable rates. We are at about $112.50 per hour of track time for racers and you get two races per weekend so the overall cost per race goes down because travel and hotel are fixed for the weekend. If you compare that with the DC region of the SCCA at $195 per weekend with only one race and about one hour of track time NASA is a pretty good deal.

With regards to SP. I gotta go where I can get dates. Charlotte was not well attended overall and it is REALLY expensive. CMP is not well attended either. I can't be expected to have dates that are losses and then watch a group that got it's start because of my chapter go elsewhere. That is just pushing on the margins too hard.

We are very long term minded but there is no long term with out some successful short term. The long term view is that we build killer regional series and then once the critical mass has formed, move to national championships. This stuff just takes a long time. You guys have to be patient.

Remember too that I love all my series. I have to think about what is best for everyone. Contrary to some peoples opinion, I have no favorites.


I understand if you disagree with me. That's cool. I have to make decisions with the information I have go with it. Some will get it, some won't . Most don't care and just want to go race.

I agree with the guy that posted just prior to you. Let's just have some fun.


Peace,
Chris

nasava
02-24-2004, 04:02 AM
Duh.

You can go to the website and renew.

C

nasava
02-24-2004, 04:05 AM
Cobrabitn is wise.

C

98banana
02-24-2004, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by cobrabitn
I take my hat off to anyone who can put on a successful event and please the majority of the participants. Too many times many of the people that give you something you would not ordinarily have are not thanked enough, instead they have their flaws pointed out to them. (We got this last year at CMP) It's okay to be constructive but not to the point where the fun stops. Enjoy your series, enjoy your friendship, and thank the people that do this so that you have the opportunity to enjoy your vehicle and make new friends.
Damn Tony! That's one of the best paragraphs I think I've ever read about organizing a track event! Awesome, and thank you.:thumbsup:

Hazman
02-24-2004, 07:36 AM
As someone who is new to open tracking and for that matter the whole car event scene my hat is off to all of you who put on these events. I have helped on 2 events and am working on a third now. The amount of time and effort behind the scenes that most participants never see is unreal.

A big thank you to Tony and the folks of the SVT Cobra Mustang Club for all they do for us.:thumbsup:

Also a big thank you to the folks at NASA. Seeing and reading info on AI is one reason I got into open tracking. I now have my NASA membership and will be attending some of the HPDEs this year. Just wish I had looked at the schedule earlier and had not missed VIR.:thumbsup:


Keep up the good work!!!!!

nasava
02-24-2004, 10:24 AM
Thanks for the kudos with regard to NASA-VA. You know as difficult as this stuff can be I am digging it more and more. I don't often get the chance to instruct anymore but this past weekend I got to sit in three students cars. It is refreshing to see the enthusiasm of the newbie and very rewarding to see the light in their eyes when they start to get what I am teaching. I get the same feeling when I see a racer participate in their first race and when a racer wins for the first time. It's just cool. I can't explain it or why it's so cool.

I know that this can be a thankless job but we do get some compliments and that really means something.


See you at CMP!!

Peace,
C

wreckm
02-24-2004, 10:26 AM
Okay, now I am the country bumpkin!What this seems to me after several years being involvedwith Ai is as follows: Ai has grown at a huge pace, BUT it is not NASA that made it grow to what it is today! NASA only provided the platform to run. It was Dan, James, Shugg, Pearson, Will, Anderson,Kohler,Lester, Mike, David & Brian Smith, Tone, Mark,Barry,Pantas and many many others that formed friendships and rivalries and brought even more people in! Now with the success that they have recieved NASA is tapping in and taking over. Without the countless and unselfish hours spent by the directors and the racers alike going after AI sponserships there would be know AI east. Now it seems that it is NASA doing it and taking credit for and advantage of the past hard work done. Example but also a question, Who was responsible for getting Kenny Brown , Steeda , Whitman Tire ,Cobalt Brakes and many others involved as contingency sponsers? Next is the question avoided about VIR! Is it true that FFR will take the spot there? My opinion is for what it is worth AI is agreat success but is being cashed in on by NASA. Being as Ai last year was your largest race group why did we still have to run with the stockcars? At CMP they were allowed to run with us without splitting the field.We almost ended our championship chase there after a collision with a much slower stockcar that was holding eveyone up, then had to avoid the fight afterwards with NO help from NASA. Then there is the mess at SP with parking when the ffr crowd was allowed in to "set up camp" before any AI was let in. The majority of AI spent the weekend in the mud then after traveling the furthest to get there Barry had to set on pit for the first lap. At Vir the light falls off the pacecar and spreads glass all over the track. At Lowes Anderson is DQ'd for changing a flat tire on pit road.Not that smooth from the racers prospective!The best race we all attended last year for the amount of track time and being run to perfection was at Beaver Run! Besides the rain and wind PERFECT!!!!!!! I am sure Chris is here because of my talk with Pantas several weeks ago which I was warned not to talk about and now I see it has all been avoided. No I am not a driver and have no desire to be! But I missed only the last race of the year at SP and have worked more hours than most drivers so I feel entitled to my opinion. Thanks for the time!

b_tone
02-24-2004, 10:49 AM
Jay, thanks for the nod in my general direction.

After reading this thread I feel that everyone needs to get together for a big group hug. We need to feel the love, hug your neighbor and live in happiness and bliss......

mwilson7
02-24-2004, 10:53 AM
Although you probably can't answer this Chris but how come on the west coast the AI/X group runs in both north and south NASA clubs on a regular basis while for us east coasters it seems to be such a dificult proposition.

Just some thoughts.......

AI/X #08
02-24-2004, 11:10 AM
Though this discussion seems to be focused on NASA VA region and I am a part of the ohio/Indiana region, I'd like to voice my quick opinion. Being able to do this over the internet is what helped the people that have already been mentioned to make AI a success story that it is. All the comments from people seem to go in the direction of concern that AI will not continue it's direction towards improvement. The founder of McDonald's Ray Kroc had a saying. "When you're green you're growing, and when you're ripe you rot". Simply stating the obvious that you never platou, you either get better or worse. I believe that Chris, Dan, Lawrence, Jim and all the directors have helped to make AI,(NASA) better. I have spoken with Chris in detail about what his plans are and being a businessmen myself, I feel that Chris has what it takes to make this thing work. I am aware of the investment that is required and it is large and with any investment, you need to expect a return. In my business, I expect to lose money for the first three years, stay flat for the next 4 and begin to see a profit after that till 10 years, reinvest, and start all over. Every business and every investment is different. Waht I read into some of the comments over the years in regards to AI from the competitors, is they(we) have an investment also. We spend thousands and thousands of dollars, hundreds of hours of time, and put our jobs at stake sometimes to make events. Though the lines of communications is what helped people learn that AI is out there, sometimes the information isn't spilled out to the drivers about what is going on and that is the main grievance I hear with the people that are the stars of this series, the drivers. Without them, an investment will not see a return and without communication to the drivers the return won't be there because the drivers won't be able to plan their budgets to put the money where it needs to go.
With due respect to VIR. Chris is correct. VIR wasn't a good marketing deal on short term basis. It was a long term investment and I think we all knew that and I feel that racing there was done with that consideration. I feel that the driver stepped up their normal entry fee's to help market their series and that shows the drive the drivers have to make this series work. I feel that the drivers just simply don't want it to be an us and them when it comes to the management and us. The drivers just need to know what is going on as quickly as possible so they can make plans and help NASA grow to what we all want it to be. With due respect to what Chris and others have invested into building AI into a business, what have the drivers invested in their cars and teams in comparison? Quite a bit more then the business has and that needs to be taken into consideration. At the levels we are talking about, the teams are going to become businesses over time as well.
Chris, Dan, Jim, Lawrence, thank you for doing a good job. From a driver coming from different series, I know what it's like to run in a well run outfit and a poorly run one. I know you guys put a lot of effort and heart into this series and we the drivers, fans, and friends appreciate it. Let's just find a way to let the lines of communication stay open and stay up to date. It may be forums which have marketed AI for years, or it may be in our yahoo group email. Whichever is more convenient but it should be defined by the directors in one place so we can all be sure to read the info and voice our opinions without having to go to multiple forums to voice the same opinion. Thanks for the time,

Mark Luna

mwilson7
02-24-2004, 11:16 AM
I thought you said you were going to be quick! :rolleyes:

Well put..... but you had ME at Hello

NOW GET #8 TOGETHER AND COME RACE WITH US ALREADY!:doubt: ;)

wreckm
02-24-2004, 11:30 AM
I think you may be somewhat full of it ! I just think that due to eveyones hard work, that you have what you have. Now NASA is cashing in! VIR was sucessful due to eveyone in AI working together. From MM to GRIGGS to Luna to Jeremy to you and eveyone else. Chris was never at the meetings that I was. They numbered the pits and paced the field and claimed it as theirs!

wreckm
02-24-2004, 11:52 AM
Chris says that VIR was a long term investment not a short term. Okay I can see that BUT, instead of Dan spending many hours with the Va. Ford dealers trying to get support to have it televised only to loose out in the end ,maybe some of the 100's of thousands Chris says is earmarked to get the Driffters and bling blings at the track should have been used to get AI in front of the public. Dan was not on the Nasa payroll, How has he beniffited other than getting his fingers slammed in the door?

nasava
02-24-2004, 01:22 PM
We always have had combination events out west. If you read back through this thread I think I mentioned that we will be doing that on the east coast as well.

C

johnbasf
02-24-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by nasava
I also knew that this event would make the regular NASA va events surrounding it suffer. As it turns out,( and I won't get into specific financials because I DO have competitors) if you take the average total entry that AI represented in a regular NASA weekend and multiply by two (CMP and SP) then subtract the ACTUAL net for (cmp, vir and sp) it was a loss. Peace,
Chris

Chris, I think the reason these 2 events took a hit was because of what we were charged for the Grand Am event. Since that event last year we have all found out how much the actual event cost was per racer. How can you justify charging that much over what VIR actually charged? I'm not trying to put you on trial here but this event alone has contibuted to a lot of hard feelings. Thanks

AI/X #08
02-24-2004, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by mwilson7

NOW GET #8 TOGETHER AND COME RACE WITH US ALREADY!:doubt: ;)

Help me sell my AGS car to some perspective AI driver, and you may just get your wish. I need to feel 550rwhp again.:D

Mark

b_tone
02-24-2004, 02:38 PM
I think you should run AI in the AGS car. It will be more fun.

I would like to see the dyno where you have 550rwhp in the yellow car. Call me a cynic but I think that's a bit hopeful, and if it's true you should have been running 2:19's at RA.......


D'oh!! I still can't spell.

nasava
02-24-2004, 02:52 PM
Thanks for the support Mark.

Series succeed for three basic reasons.

1. A consistent and strong place to run.
2. Consistent and logical rules set that are be refined over time
3. Enthusiastic leadership

All three are equally important.


Peace,
C

b_tone
02-24-2004, 02:56 PM
Series succeed for three basic reasons.

1. A consistent and strong place to run.
2. Consistent and logical rules set that are be refined over time
3. Enthusiastic leadership

All three are equally important.


Peace,
C


Chris I believe that you have neglected to include the actual racers in your list. Since you are the Enthusiastic leader of the VA chapter of NASA I will give benefit of the doubt and say this was an accident.

After all without We the Racers, where would NASA and the VA region be......

bt

wreckm
02-24-2004, 03:17 PM
Well stated Tone, for a man of few words!So did AI get ditched at VIR for FFR?

AI/X #08
02-24-2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by b_tone
I think you should run AI in the AGS car. It will be more fun.

I would like to see the dyno where you have 550rwhp in the yellow car. Call me a synic but I think that's a bit hopeful, and if it's true you should have been running 2:19's at RA.......

I've done the math with the AGS car and it would be better for me to sell that car and campaign the AI/X car financially. The AGS car would make a great AI car as it sits let a lone with the far more liberal rules. Who knows, I might just dump the yellow banana all together and do it.

The banana car was making more than 550 on the dyno actually. We detuned it for Road America and every race we went to. It will run 15 lb's of boost, but we ran 6-8 at VIR and RA hoping it would just last long enough to get some good suspension tuning time on it. That worked until the third link bracket broke and the belts kept slipping. We ran the FTD with a belt slipping from turn 9-14. People who say that the hydroboost will last if you lose the power steering pump are full of crap.:mad: Moral of this saga is the car could have been where you suggested, but it never will be so it's a mute point.
Why do you want to see my AGS car out there?

F.Y.I. We got the calipers last week. Thanks.:thumbsup:

Mark

wildhorsesracin
02-24-2004, 03:30 PM
It is clearly obvious that everyone involved in this sport whether they are directors, racers or support are passionate about racing. We wouldn't be reading this thread if we weren't! :thumbsup:

I can clearly state that many things are going to improve in American Iron this year, we will definitely have many, many more cars racing in ALL regions which will be a blessing :thumbsup: and a curse. :eek:

As with all racing events that are rapidly growing we'll need positive feedback and of course patience from the racers, or we all might as well all go home and pout! :baby:

NASA-SE will be hosting racing events, and American Iron will be a class at those events, but with only 4 race weekends / 9 races on the schedule it would be hard to call it a series in 2004, hopefully as we get more track events in 2005 we'll expand as planned. :thumbsup:

Having stepped over the line from racer to director I have had the luxury of seeing both sides of the fence, and I cannot re-iterate two very old cliches enough -
"the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence" :eek:
-and-
"be careful what you wish for" :thumbsup:
as a businessman for the past 10 years or so, I look back and think of another cliche - (or recent country music song)
"what was I thinking?!?!?!" :rotf:
also from a business perspective nothing holds truer than the old racing cliche -
"How do you make $1 million dollars in racing? - Start with $2 million!!!" :eek:
So none of us are getting rich doing this, most of us are just trying to find a way to pay for our habit, or feed our children, I can honestly say that many of us are definitely not doing this for the money, but for the love of the sport.

Serously though, anyone who has put on an event knows the amount of effort it requires, and any racer that has competed ALSO knows the amount of effort it requires, so we must ALL either be totally insane or passionate about the sport. I vote for the latter. (although sane people think that putting a race suit on the the summer in the SE would indicate the prior!! :rotf: )

Simply hang on, American Iron will be a wild ride this year, exploding in ALL regions, under new, passionate, excellent, leadership and let's all get out there and race 4" from each other's door handle!! We have all had our b*tch sessions this past off-season, but we are a giant AI/X family, and the proof is at the BBQ's we hold every Saturday nite, when we ALL hang out, talk about the close racing that day and keep friendships current.

My advice is to get yourself some sponsorship because you will want to compete at every venue imaginable! I know I have a few events earmarked for my new car...? and I am going to try and hit every event I can as soon as it is done, including all the way to Road America! :thumbsup:

See you at the track! :thumbsup:

b_tone
02-24-2004, 03:39 PM
Jim, do you think it's a good idea to have 3 seperate regions all running AI series?

justagt
02-24-2004, 03:43 PM
for the love of all that is unnatural ........... is there any way to take the smiley face feature off of Jim's computer???

wildhorsesracin
02-24-2004, 03:51 PM
Brian,
There are only two regions running an American Iron East series in 2004.

NASA-SE will only be hosting races, those that race in NASA-SE in AI/X will get trophies for each race, but other than that they will primarily get track time on venues for the 2005 American Iron East season.

I think you find out later this week that all of this will change in 2005 anyway... :thumbsup:

American Iron is gearing up to explode exponentially... :bounce: with many changes for the good...

wildhorsesracin
02-24-2004, 03:54 PM
justagt said:
for the love of all that is unnatural ........... is there any way to take the smiley face feature off of Jim's computer???

:jawdrop: :eek: :D :) :( :o ;) :mad: :doubt: :bounce: :thumbsup: :rotf: :rolleyes: ;) :) :D :cool: :eek: :baby: :doubt: :bounce: :thumbsup: :rotf: :( :) :o :thumbsup: :jawdrop: :eek: :D :) :( :o ;) :mad: :doubt: :bounce: :thumbsup: :rotf: :rolleyes: ;) :) :D :cool: :eek: :baby: :doubt: :bounce: :thumbsup: :rotf: :( :) :o :thumbsup: :jawdrop: :eek: :D :) :( :o ;) :mad: :doubt: :bounce: :thumbsup: :rotf: :rolleyes: ;) :) :D :cool: :eek: :baby: :doubt: :bounce: :thumbsup: :rotf: :( :) :o :thumbsup: :jawdrop: :eek: :D :) :( :o ;) :mad: :doubt: :bounce: :thumbsup: :rotf: :rolleyes: ;) :) :D :cool: :eek: :baby: :doubt: :bounce: :thumbsup: :rotf: :( :) :o :thumbsup: :jawdrop: :eek: :D :) :( :o ;) :mad: :doubt: :bounce: :thumbsup: :rotf: :rolleyes: ;) :) :D :cool: :eek: :baby: :doubt: :bounce: :thumbsup: :rotf: :( :) :o :thumbsup: :jawdrop: :eek: :D :) :( :o ;) :mad: :doubt: :bounce: :thumbsup: :rotf: :rolleyes: ;) :) :D :cool: :eek: :baby: :doubt: :bounce: :thumbsup: :rotf: :( :) :o :thumbsup:

mwilson7
02-24-2004, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by AI/X #08
Why do you want to see my AGS car out there?


Mark

Actually we just want to see you with ANY car out there!!!! Your yellow car would have made a good addition to the AIX field.

justagt
02-24-2004, 04:04 PM
Spec Miata, here I come...........................................

justagt
02-24-2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by b_tone
Jim, do you think it's a good idea to have 3 seperate regions all running AI series?



Oh, oh, oh, I will answer.................. NO. I think it is a very bad idea.

AI/X #08
02-24-2004, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by mwilson7
Actually we just want to see you with ANY car out there!!!! Your yellow car would have made a good addition to the AIX field.

Yeah, it is a great looking car in the pits. When spectators saw the cars go by, they could look at mine and say "hey, that is what they look like and what they have on them." Maybe we should call it the official AI/X show car?
It still might make a good addition to the AI/X field. Too soon to tell.

Mark

mwilson7
02-24-2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by wildhorsesracin

I can clearly state that many things are going to improve in American Iron this year, we will definitely have many, many more cars racing in ALL regions which will be a blessing :thumbsup: and a curse. :eek:



Is this true? Do you have any data to back this up? It seems like AI is dead on the west coast and the VA region looks to be down as well. Where are you getting your info from?

johnbasf
02-24-2004, 04:29 PM
As usual AI racers are the last to know and are kept out of the decision making. Man I miss Schlick.

b_tone
02-24-2004, 04:30 PM
John, do you need a hug?

nasava
02-24-2004, 04:30 PM
Racers as part of the equation? Let me re-phrase. You need those three things in order to attract racers.


With regards to the VIR entry fee. I wanted to allow an additional series in that would have brought the fees down to about $400. Dan was working his deal with potential TV and wanted AI to have the entire spotlight. By the time the TV deal was a no go it was too late to give the go ahead to the other guys.

I will not get into the specifics about how I structure my fees but I had to guarantee 35 cars to VIR whether 35 showed up or not and I got no break with volume. The first car cost me as much as the 50th car. Plus I had to bring all of my own crew except for cornerworkers and grid.. I had to pay the same amount for insurance that I would at a regular NASA weekend but with only one group to spread the cost over instead of the normal 250-300. The sanction fee to NASA had to be paid. The trophies had to be paid for. Hotels, gas meals.....etc. plus general overhead. I know everyone is comparing this to BMW clubs $350 entry but keep in mind that the BMW club racers pay that amount or close to it for entry at every one of their events. NASA racers only pay $225-$240 at most NASA events. BMW club membership and licensing is higher than NASAs and the cost of racing BMW equivalent in speed to and AI car can be much higher.

The fee was high but it is what Dan and I agreed to in the beginning. Dan constantly assurred me that we would have at least 45 cars and maybe 50 based upon what he was hearing so I really thought it was a moot point and the volume discount would kick in. Mind you, I am not throwing Dan under the bus. We both talked alot and worked hard (although according to Hoover I was sitting back drinking mint julips) to make the event happen but in the end it was me that had to sign on the dotted line and be responsible for the checks. With risk should come reward and again I will ask. Would any of you come up with extra money for me had I taken a loss? And BTW all of this would moot if Bruce Griggs or Brian Tone had not pulled out of the race after registering.

I did not lie. I did not cheat. I did not steal. Had I known then what I know now I just would have passed on the event. I am the subject of ugly and hurtful attacks based in fiction from one that I considered a friend.

I consider all the AI guys friends and to me the most important thing in life is your family and your friends. It is not worth $100 for me to lose a friend. You may think that I'm full of crap but it's true. One can be soft hearted and still have a successful business. In this particular case if after you have looked at the whole picture you find that you feel you have been cheated then email Laura at registration@nasaracing.net and we will give you a credit for $100 for your next event.

I'm just tire of being kicked for providing what I thought was something really cool for AI drivers.

Can we please just go race now?

C

justagt
02-24-2004, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by mwilson7
It seems like AI is dead on the west coast and the VA region looks to be down as well. Where are you getting your info from?


Good point, Mark. It does seem that a lot of front-running, there-every-race guys aren't running the full schedule.

Just thought of this............... if AI-East will be run with the VA region events exclusively, does this mean that the REGION, be it VA, SE, yo' mama, whoever, will be responsible for providing the dyno at the track to keep folks within the rules. I wonder this because I know in the past, it has sometimes fallen on AI to get the dyno. Oh, and (again) will there be an ad for the series in Grassroots this year?

johnbasf
02-24-2004, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by cobrabitn
I do not know most of you, I am not familiar with NASA or their rules and regulations but I do know this. Putting on an event is stressful. It takes a lot of time, energy, and stamina to put on any kind of track event. Oh, it looks easy but believe me, it isn't. It's worrying about this or worrying about that? Will the event be successful? will it pay for itself? will everyone have a good time?

Organizing and paying bills, collecting fees, depositing funds, putting together the right staff, and a hundred other things that go along with it.

I take my hat off to anyone who can put on a successful event and please the majority of the participants. Too many times many of the people that give you something you would not ordinarily have are not thanked enough, instead they have their flaws pointed out to them. (We got this last year at CMP) It's okay to be constructive but not to the point where the fun stops. Enjoy your series, enjoy your friendship, and thank the people that do this so that you have the opportunity to enjoy your vehicle and make new friends.

Thanks for your ear!:)

Tony, we all understand what it takes to put on an event. There are issues other than that being hashed out here. :D

wildhorsesracin
02-24-2004, 04:36 PM
HPDE feeds Competition Schools and Competition school graduates become racers... :thumbsup:

Also, when I said:
"be careful what you wish for"
I meant it, from the standpoint that I get close to 100 emails a day inquiring about NASA-SE and how people can come race/drive with us, if you split those #'s up into Honda Challenge, GTS Challenge, Spec Miata, 944 Cup, Legends cars, and of course American Iron - it becomes a matter of simple math...

All indication are CMC/AI/AIX will grow tremendously based on what I am seeing, and of course all the TV & magazine publicity is helping ;)


PS. This is for justagt: :D :thumbsup: :rolleyes: ;) :) :eek: :rotf:

b_tone
02-24-2004, 04:37 PM
Would any of you come up with extra money for me had I taken a loss? And BTW all of this would moot if Bruce Griggs or Brian Tone had not pulled out of the race after registering.


Actually there were 35 there ready to run. Richard Kohler and Brion Gluck both had car problems that denied them starting the race.

33 finished the first race, with Gluck and Kohler there were 35. Bruce and myself would have been icing bringing up the total to 37.....yes in a row!!!

nasava
02-24-2004, 04:39 PM
I don't have any data for or against putting an ad in GRM. If ads are worth it then they are worth it. If they are not then they are not. Most of the calls I got regarding AI were from the magazine articles, Hot Rod TV and word of mouth. I love GRM and tim is my friend but I never had anyone say to me that the ad prompted their call.

With regards to the Dyno. Working on it but there aren't that many traveling dynos around. If you were at the track this past weekend you would have noticed a dyno there.

C

johnbasf
02-24-2004, 04:40 PM
Chris, I'm not kicking. I'm just trying to get the facts. The people at VIR are saying something different than you. Do you feel that we deserve a $100 discount?

I will be racing and look forward to seeing everybody at the track. I don't know which track but I will be somewhere.

nasava
02-24-2004, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by b_tone
Actually there were 35 there ready to run. Richard Kohler and Brion Gluck both had car problems that denied them starting the race.

33 finished the first race, with Gluck and Kohler there were 35. Bruce and myself would have been icing bringing up the total to 37.....yes in a row!!!

Sorry guys but only 34 actual AI racers participated. We went through the practice, qualifying and race sheets as well as the registration sheet from the front gate. Dan even confirmed it.

C

nasava
02-24-2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by johnbasf
Chris, I'm not kicking. I'm just trying to get the facts. The people at VIR are saying something different than you. Do you feel that we deserve a $100 discount?

I will be racing and look forward to seeing everybody at the track. I don't know which track but I will be somewhere.

What are the VIR people saying?

b_tone
02-24-2004, 04:48 PM
So was I imagining Kohler and his father working on the car in the pics trying to swap motors, or imagining talking to gluck when his ditributor gear stripped out? By my account they were there, if they got on track for practice/qualifying or the race I can't say.

johnbasf
02-24-2004, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by nasava
What are the VIR people saying?

$250 per racer.

justagt
02-24-2004, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by nasava
If you were at the track this past weekend you would have noticed a dyno there.

C


True, I wasn't there so I didn't see it. But that is cool and good news. Hopefully the group felt it worth their time and can possible show up at more of the events.

wildhorsesracin
02-24-2004, 04:55 PM
nasava posted:
With regards to the Dyno. Working on it but there aren't that many traveling dynos around. If you were at the track this past weekend you would have noticed a dyno there.

Interesting point Chris, I saw the dyno, I was paddocked near it and I also noticed that no one used it on Saturday - I would imagine that since American Iron requires a recent dyno sheet, the way to remedy the dyno question is to require all AI racers to do at least one dyno pull a weekend... ;)

That would also eliminate anyone doubting another racer's status as a possible cheater... :thumbsup:

nasava
02-24-2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by b_tone
So was I imagining Kohler and his father working on the car in the pics trying to swap motors, or imagining talking to gluck when his ditributor gear stripped out? By my account they were there, if they got on track for practice/qualifying or the race I can't say.

If you don't turn a wheel then you get a full refund and can't be counted as a registered participant.

justagt
02-24-2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by wildhorsesracin
...the way to remedy the dyno question is to require all AI racers to do at least one dyno pull a weekend... ;)

So can I use your Visa or Mastercard for my remedy? :321:

justagt
02-24-2004, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by nasava
If you don't turn a wheel then you get a full refund.

Hey, I didn't make it a full lap. Do I get 50% back? :D


Laugh, people.

nasava
02-24-2004, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by johnbasf
$250 per racer.

Well, my contract and cancelled check says $300 per car. Keep in mind that I still had all of the other expenses on top of that.
If AI goes back to VIR this year the entry will be $375 but all of my other costs they will incur. VIR will handle registration. There is two hours and forty minutes of track time over three days.


As to whether or not everyone deserves it. I think a deal is a deal. Everyone knew the deal going in. Nothing was hidden and Schlick was on board and informed everyone in emails. It was also on the registration site. I am merely offering an olive branch.

I haven't done anything wrong. The offer is there. The NASA entry fees are reasonable. If people think it is a good deal then they will come. If they don't they won't.

With regards to FFR. They are not there in place of AI. They are there in addition.

C

mwilson7
02-24-2004, 06:04 PM
Guys I think I need to say something here and I am going to try to keep it really simple. Chris made a deal with Dan for VIR. It was $XXX if you have less than 35 cars and $XXX-$100 for 35 or more cars. Once the event was over Chris AND Dan went over the numbers and a decision was made that we didn't have enough cars. Although we may not be happy with that decision a deal is a deal. Bickering over it isn't going to really change anything at this point. Chris has offered anyone who was there a $100 credit towards their next event so what is the point of continuing to badger him over this.

Although I wasn't happy with the decision of not giving us the $100 refund as well I do appreciate that Chris at least supported us running there and I for one had a great time and am proud to say I was a part of it.

While I definitely don't agree with everything Chris says we as racers have to also understand that we don't exist without him.

There is alot going on with AI and I would suggest that everyone just sit tight for a couple days and see what happens. It may be hard to resist (especially for people like me) but bite your tongues and I say again........sit tight.

P.S. I wanted to just state for the record that AI-West is not actually dead but it has instead stagnated.

P.S.S.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by nasava
With regards to FFR. They are not there in place of AI. They are there in addition.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris - I'm dissappointed by this statement and I believe you know why.

johnbasf
02-24-2004, 06:40 PM
I walk away now. :D I'm going to wait.

Tnmustcobra
02-24-2004, 08:58 PM
Wow ! I can't believe all the negativity I am reading. I joined NASA in 1999 and participated in HPDE events at several tracks and advanced to the point where I am interested and have been planning to enter the AI/X series. I have been so excited over the years with the experience of high speed driving and I am sure everyone else posting replies has felt the adrenaline flow from the first time you ever went to a track and drove fast. I have been planning for the past 3 years to enter the series, and I have encountered several personal hardships that have always seemed to delay my entrance into the series. I finally have made the committment several months ago to prepare a car for AI/X and the financial obligation has been extreme for my income and budget....but I pushed to proceed despite the difficulty. I read these comments and wonder...is this what the NASA AI/X series has to offer me? I am saddened by the absence of the enthusiasm I saw at past events and am wondering if I should shelf the whole project and buy a boat and hang out at the lake instead. I have been looking forward to testing my car, my skills and luck, against the leaders in AI and AIX to see if I could beat my opponents. I am competitive and always push 100% in my activities and goals.

I have enjoyed the VA chapter of NASA and have always thought the events were very professionally ran and there was encouragement and help from instructors and the racers. I have been watching the results for all the races during the seasons and I know who is the fastest and the most consistent. I want to be at the top and feel the joy of winning or the equality of running amongst the veterans at the front, whether I come in 1st, 2nd 3rd or wherever. Now there seems division and some want to run in SE and some in East, and I am wondering which region to run.

Well, I guess I am too far into my committment to back out now. The only problem I have is to make a choice. Some may think there is only one region to run and decisions will be made. I will make that decision, but probably not based on what I hearing on this site. Could be SE or East...don't know yet. I am working on a major sponsor for the car and I know that wherever I go, they will want to see professionalism and above all, a series that will expose there name and product to the citizens of the USA that are wanting to watch the series and identify the sponsor with the leading cars in the series. I hope that AI/X can grow to a national series with exposure to magazines, newspapers, and TV.

I just want to have as much fun as possible with the sport and hopefully the drivers and the directors can discuss the issues with open ears and open minds. Sometimes I think I know everything, but I find that sometimes it is best to listen and analyze the whole issue from both sides before I decide what is the best solution.

" Create ways which you can, not reasons why you can't"
Be positive and optimistic...that is my motto.

So, where do I go....? East or SE ? That is the question!

Future racer?

COBRA #17
02-24-2004, 11:00 PM
I know I don't have a big college degree like most of you, and I don't express myself in the best manner at times.
I have been made out to be the bad guy again.
:( As for you stating "I said you charged too much or what ever, I was voicing the opinions of my fellow drivers. Who I was getting calls from weekly after VIR.
I don't know why ( chris) you have gotten so defensive all of a sudden, and incriminating me. I didn't even start this thing. I, Like John just would like to have some questions answered" HONESTLY" As for Pantas's jab at me putting my car on the dyno I WAS ON THE DYNO MORE THAN ANY OTHER AI CAR THIS YEAR, and was legal EVERY TIME and even over weight by at least 15 to 52 lbs each time!!!
SO "SHUT UP ABOUT IT !"

The original point I was trying to make was brought up to me by a possible sponsor.
Which was " Why should I sponsor a car when the sanctioning body doesn't even acknowledge thier winners much less sponsors?" I haden't thought of it in that manner.
As for our events we have had good and bad, and honestly the good have out weighed the bad. Chris does a great job, I didn't mean for this to turn into a Cabetto grilling session. I just think our guys are tired of being ignored and not answered by national. Chris doesn't have anything to do with that. Though I feel he has made a very valid attempt to create a good relationship between Dan and National. For several reasons, $$$ being the biggest and I don't blame him. I'm sure the little one eats his share of PASTA too!!

On the other hand the racers and people watching haven't gotten a glimpse of what has happened behind the scenes this year. This meaning the way Dan was treated and disrespected all through the year. From the rules making down to the lack of help before the VIR event. That is really what started all of this. Then the 34 car count instead of 35 at VIR just inflamed it. I think a few of guys have gotten a small taste of it in the last month or so, but only the tip of the iceburg.

Another point missed by several, was the one from Will about " Tracks have been calling wanting AI to participate. This is VERY true!!!

One more short point. I know hind sight is 20/20 but here it goes. If Chris had backed up and given us half the money we were promissed the car count at Summit would have doubled because things would have ended on a positive note. The fact things ended a on a negitive note it has created many bad thoughts and feelings. Then Chris's loss wouldn't have been so great. Since he is basing VIR as a loss because his car count was next to nothing at Summit, not because he lost money at VIR itself ( am I not right here Chris?). I am not sugesting Chris did anything wrong I just feel this would have changed things BIG TIME !!!:thumbsup:
Just looking for positive fixes for what has went wrong.


Still just a dumb ole country boy :thumbsup: ( but a fast one :D )

AI/X #08
02-25-2004, 12:34 AM
Tnmustcobra,

I am hoping you are willing and able to change your views on how you've read this thread. I can certainly see how you would take some comments and replies as negative, but please look at it from a positive perspective as well. We have an open relationship between management and drivers. Drivers are a large part of the series and have been the biggest part of making this series grow as fast as it has. Some folks may disagree with that comment, but the drivers spend most of the time replying on forums and that is great advertising. Much more than the people in charge though I have seen many posts by JWL and Ryan in other forums. Chris is also involved particularly at late. Eric Meehan and Lawrence Mansier are two people that are also very involved in responding to forums and that is where the popularity of this series has stemmed from in my opinion.
Making the decision to build a car for AI/X was based on the people you dealt with and the quality of the events. Those two things haven't changed and frankly will only improve. Conversations like these are the stepping stones to making things better. As I stated before, you either get ripe, or you rot. This thead is an indication that everyone wants to continue to see NASA and AI improve on an already successful venture. I see our series only getting better with conversations like this and I hope people are able to interpret it in this way in future.
Good luck this year, listen to the people out there, learn all that you can from these people, be safe, and most of all have fun. If you do those things this year, then you invested wisely

Mark Luna

wreckm
02-25-2004, 10:57 AM
Being as I am mostly ignored anyway, I am done for now!

smarcus69
02-25-2004, 11:28 AM
Mr. Hoover,
I have found that your posts in regards to this thread are completely out of line. You are a talented driver and car builder and should not be wasting your time stretching these stories on this forum.
At VIR 34 cars was not 35 and you do not deserve a credit. What Chis has offered is very gratious of him. No more should be said...period!
Your statement in regards to not being recognized as a champion by NASA is a joke. Did you show up at the awards banquet to receive your trophy? Did you tell NASA that you could not attend? Did you request to have it mailed to you? Quite a few of your competitors were there and would have surely congratulated you on your accomplishment. You even stated to others that your competitors had stated that you were cheating! Don't blame NASA for that.
Aren't you supposed to be an assistant director for the series? Why wasn't your championship posted on the AI site in a timely fashion?
Your hard-headedness cost you alot of fun this past weekend at VIR. Remember we do this for fun.
Come on James, stop complaining and get involved!

Still your friend
Steve Marcus
Marcus Motorsports, llc

nasava
02-25-2004, 12:15 PM
I agree with Marc Luna. These forums are good and bad. For some reason people take the gloves off and forget proper etiquette when the "send" button can be hit in the comfort of ones own home.


Frustration is a tough thing. We all have to deal with it but don't let it discourage you from playing at the track with AI. There is a silent majority out there that just doesn't care about the politics of racing and they show up at the track, drive, laugh, enjoy some golden beverages and lie about how fast they are. Those that aren't that way don't tend to stick around long. NASA and AI will be around for a long time and just like everything else in life there will be ebbs and flows but the comraderie that you feel is very real and will continue at the NASA events.

I'm done for now. If you guys need me hit me with an email or a call.

Peace,
Chris

AI/X #08
02-25-2004, 12:29 PM
I'm done for now. If you guys need me hit me with an email or a call.

I'm going to hit you if you don't learn to spell my name right. Mark :D
Just kidding about the hitting.

Mark

b_tone
02-25-2004, 01:28 PM
Pantas, what are these huge changes in AI you were speaking about?

nasava
02-25-2004, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by AI/X #08
I'm going to hit you if you don't learn to spell my name right. Mark :D
Just kidding about the hitting.

Mark


Sorry Marc.....oooh Damnit MARK.

;)

AI/X #08
02-25-2004, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by nasava
Sorry Marc.....oooh Damnit MARK.

;)

BAHHH! It's allright Kris Cabitoh.:p

Mark

wildhorsesracin
02-25-2004, 04:42 PM
b_tone said:
Pantas, what are these huge changes in AI you were speaking about?

They are good for AI - just be patient!!
You will like the outcome, I am excited about it! :thumbsup:


PS. this is for will: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

smarcus69
02-25-2004, 04:46 PM
Mark,

I think you have him confused with "Chris (don't let him drive MY race car) Cobetto".

hehehe:rotf:

98banana
02-25-2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by b_tone
Pantas, what are these huge changes in AI you were speaking about?

Originally posted by wildhorsesracin
They are good for AI - just be patient!!
You will like the outcome, I am excited about it!

:rotf: Thank you Jim! It's nice to see somebody not answer tone's question like he does everyone else. :D

b_tone
02-25-2004, 04:49 PM
Tom, I never ask a question that i don't already know the answer to.......

racercosmo
02-25-2004, 04:58 PM
AI is hurting in the West because: 1. Keith and Kevin went to World Challenge, 2. Guy is out of money 3. Vageli is taking his time rebuilding the car 4. Rob blew his motor up too many times 5. Bruce is focusing on more important things.

Kevin also did not like the rules that came out after he had built his motor. Twice. Dry sump lubrication should not be illegal in AI, I can agree with no aluminum blocks.

b_tone
02-25-2004, 05:03 PM
The bigger issue with losing those 5 racers is that there does not seem to be any new racers joining. For instance there are 10 new guys coming out to the first race down at nashville. I hope that we can pick up 1 or 2 each weekend thereafter.

Everyone knows that I hate to agree with Luna, he does have a point concerning stagnation versus growth.

bt

(going to cry now for publicly agreeing with ML)

johnbasf
02-25-2004, 06:59 PM
Mr. Marcus,

James did call Chris and let him know that he was not attending the banquet. I think getting married is a bit more important than NASA.

James's fellow racers have all congratulated him on his fine season. He is dissappointed because NASA didn't put anything up on"their" site about who won the series. The sponsors are the ones who asked him why NASA didn't put it up in a timely manner. I still haven't seen the winners posted on ANY NASA site. Look at it from a series sponsors view. They help us out and there is no mention of them anywhere on a NASA site.

I just got the Grassroots Magazine in the mail and the winners are in there but still no mention of our series sponsors. I for one got contingency money from MM and On Track and I would have liked them mentioned near my name.

Do you have the list from VIR? If you do please send it to me because I really don't remember how many there were. I was told 33 raced and 2 didn't make the grid.

svt_coupe
02-25-2004, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by smarcus69
I think you have him confused with "Chris (don't let him drive MY race car) Cobetto".

Now THAT is funny.

Steve - you should start building splitters out of plywood like I do. Cheaper than carbon fiber. :D

mwilson7
02-25-2004, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by johnbasf
I think getting married is a bit more important than NASA.



:doubt:

wildhorsesracin
02-25-2004, 07:14 PM
Racers,
Ever since I took on the regional director position I have been swamped, and since I was in charge of so many websites before... well... I can honestly say that it became too much - and if you ask anyone who knows me well enough - they know that NASA-VA's and American Iron's websites are just the tip of my daily iceberg...

I have passed the torch for the AI website to Trebor Moser, and I plan to get help for the NASA-VA & NASA-SE websites, it is truly a tremendous amount of work to do it all - hence my tagline:

"be careful what you wish for..."

If someone wants to help out, please email me -
jimpantas@nasa-southeast.com
I'd be glad to fill in the details about updating the sites and posting whoever wins and what points the get...

Remember, any lazy person can sit back and b*tch about it, actually stepping up and volunteering is the sign of a truly honorable person. :thumbsup:

johnbasf
02-25-2004, 07:19 PM
Lazy person.:mad: :mad: If I knew enough to do it I would. I am not volunteering.:rotf: Honest I'm going to be patient now.:D

See you guys in April.

mwilson7
02-25-2004, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by wildhorsesracin

Remember, any lazy person can sit back and b*tch about it, actually stepping up and volunteering is the sign of a truly honorable person. :thumbsup:

As long as we are quoting:

A true leader knows how to properly motivate and truly enpower his troops.....

justagt
02-25-2004, 08:53 PM
Guys,
Really, this is getting a little ridiculous. This thread started with a decent question, then turned into one that Chris was willing to answer a lot of unanswered questions and listen to some of our concerns, and now it sounds like a whine fest with a bunch of school girls.

If any of you are really that miserable, race somewhere else. There, I said it. I would hate to see anyone go, but this discussion has gotten to be useless. All of us have concerns, as we all should since we spend a ton of money on this stuff. BUT Chris didn't deserve the beating he took. He was willing to listen and offer some answers. He answered mine. I may not have liked all of them, but in a matter on minutes, he answered some that I have been trying to get answered for a while from national.

I feel safe in saying that Chris would probably admit that he hasn't done every single thing the best way ( how many of you have? ) , but I think he did what he thought was best for us as a series at that time and overall he wants AI to be successful. He has done good things for us too. As with most things in life, everyone is quick to point out the bad and even quicker to forget the good. I admit I am guilty of the same thing.

I feel the same about Dan, too. There are things I may have done a little different than he did and I have told him this, but he is still my director and I stand behind him 100%. He was doing by himself something that I doubt any of the rest of us could or would do. After Chris signed on here, I feel that both of these guys are willing to listen to the masses and find a common ground if possible. Sadly , this thread didn't stay that way. A lot of you blasted Chris and went way overboard, is some cases about things he has no control over. i think some here should apologize to him for some of the things said. Discussing gets a lot more done than b*t*hing.

After the VIR race, I sent an email to the East yahoo address, so some of you may have heard this.......... if you aren't happy with something in this series, I suggest that you come up with a solution instead of stomping your feet like a kindergarten class. Offer to help. Take some of the load off of Dan. Make suggestions in a mature way. In that email, I asked for anyone with an issue to mention it and offer a solution. Nobody said a word.

The website is a good example. I know a lot of you know a lot about computers. I also know that Jim stays very busy since he has about 15 businesses. Well, he just offered up the website to anyone who wants it. So, if perhaps you don't think your points were updated quickly enough after the last race, then this is a good time to step up and help out.

COBRA #17
02-25-2004, 10:53 PM
Hey guys this is Mrs. Hoover. James has been working overtime so I have been looking over everyones post. Usually I wouldn't get invloved but Just want to clear something up with Mr. Marcus.
James notified Nasa that we wouldn't be there and to send the award with Dan. We were getting married the following weekend and had our hands full of last minute details to the wedding and could not make the trip. To some of you guys getting married may not be that important but I think doing something thats going to last a life time was way more important. James may say some things not everyone agrees with but don't bash him on not being there for the awards. You guys missed his point from the get go. James has been contacted by several sponsors over the winter, and their main concern was lack of acknowledgement from Nasa. That was his orginal point he was trying to get across.

Thanks !!!
Mrs. Hoover

Mystic_Cobra
02-25-2004, 11:42 PM
Just so you all know, I'm still planning to come race in AI. Every road has its bumps and I understand the group is still growing.

AND I'm volunteering to help out with the website.

I guess a lot of you guys know each other better than I do, but it would be nice if some of you guys had a name with your profile or posts.

AND I'm probably the only one happy to see 4 trips to SP, since I live next door. :)

Looking forward to the 04 season and beyond!!!

AI/X #08
02-25-2004, 11:57 PM
Mrs. Hoover. You do not need to explain that it is you when you reply here in this or any forum. Your grammar is excellent and you write articulately, so we know it isn't James when you reply. :p Just paying Hoov.

I'm just playing of course. Congratulations on the marriage. Getting ready for your wedding most certainly takes precedent over going to an awards banquet. I would have chosen you over an award also, and I'm sure the majority of the guys and gals here would agree.

Mark Luna

wreckm
02-26-2004, 09:26 AM
No wonder nonobody would talk to me last night! I have an answer also for Mr. Marcus. First of all there was only 1 driver fr om Ai and 2 Aix at the banquet.Second of all the reason we werent at VIR is due to the fact there is no motor in his car. We are searching for more HP!!!!!!!!!!

justagt
02-26-2004, 09:29 AM
I think we should call Hoover Mr. Amy from now on instead of her being Mrs. Hoover!!!!:D

Amy, you are very right in that something are more important.

smarcus69
02-26-2004, 11:10 AM
Posters,
Some of you who seem to be replying to my QUESTIONS seem to be awfully ready for a fight. I am just an outsider who asked a few questions. I have an interest in seeing that NASA succeeds (no not a financial one). After James statements, I had a few questions that would back up his statements. It was not a attack on James, he has been a friend of mine for quite a few years.
I have no problems with any of The Hoovers' answers and understand that a marriage between 2 people is more important than an awards ceremony. Though if James had told Dan that he would not be there, why didn't Dan accept the trophy on his behalf and deliver it to him when he saw him the next weekend or sometime there after?
And whether it was 1 car or 34 cars that raced at VIR it still is not 35! 35 was the agreed upon number...period!!! Enough said.
Also, I have been involved in motorsports for almost 25 years and have had some experience with sponsorship, and you all need to look at it alittle differently. If you want your name to be infront of the sponsor and fan, YOU need to put it out there. If you do not feel that it is one of your attributes, HIRE someone to do it for you. It is very difficult to find a sponsor to pay all of the expenses, so find a few for the series and some for yourself. This approach helps everyone.
Believe me, I like to see my team mentioned in magazines and tv just as much as anyone. My sponsors like it as well. Not everytime will it be mentioned that you won a race or a championship and you should not be upset with the sanctioning body for that. Just last year my team was in a neck to neck fight for a championship in the Rolex series and The BMW Rondel Magazine hardly mentioned us. We were beating some of the strongest teams in the world on a regular basis. We won the inagural race at Barber Mororsports Park and were never mentioned at all. We were the only BMW GT team that ran in all of the races last year and never got a thank you from BMW. You know what...it doesn't matter, I had fun and it cost me a fortune. I probably could have done a better job of promoting our team, but I did the best that I could do and did not go and put the blame on Grand Am or BMW.
In conclusion, my QUESTIONS were not statements or flames so do not take them that way, I know James didn't...he knows me better than that. Stop looking always for the negative in things and look for the positives. I don't compete in your series, but it does have alot of potential with the help of NASA. Chris is very dedicated to American Iron and would always have a home with NASA VA. You just must remember that eventhough he loves it, it is still a business that he has to make a living at. It is his fulltime job, not a partime one.
Next time you come through tech, please introduce yourself to me, I'd like to put your face to your message. Also I encourage you to sign your name to your post, it lends credibility to your statement.

Steve Marcus
Marcus Motorsports
p.s. Brian- plywood is too heavy but MUCH cheaper than carbon at $1200 each.

johnbasf
02-26-2004, 12:08 PM
I've received several e-mails and calls over the last couple of days. Let me tell everyone watching from the outside, NASA AI will be there for everyone to enjoy. I know I'll be out there this year just because Beau said he was gonna kick my butt this year.:D AI is alive and well. :thumbsup: How's that Steve.:thumbsup: ( my sig)

nasava
02-26-2004, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by johnbasf
I've received several e-mails and calls over the last couple of days. Let me tell everyone watching from the outside, NASA AI will be there for everyone to enjoy. I know I'll be out there this year just because Beau said he was gonna kick my butt this year.:D AI is alive and well. :thumbsup: How's that Steve.:thumbsup: ( my sig)

See now. THIS is good 'ole trash talk.

Speaking of trash talk. Is it just me that wonders if the reason Shuggy is so smooth is because of his loafer-light touch on the throttle? NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT!!


Big Smootch,
C:D :rolleyes: :p

svt_coupe
02-26-2004, 01:25 PM
That's OK Chris. I didn't take offense. That's because I know what you were thinking here:

"No matter how many times I teach it and say it out loud, I can't stop using that darned throttle like a lightswitch."

svt_coupe
02-26-2004, 01:26 PM
...and I know what you were thinking here:

"Daym. How DOES Shugg do it?"

smarcus69
02-26-2004, 01:52 PM
That's awesome!! Shuggy, Chris will harass you forever for that one.
I love it!

Steve "zing" Marcus
(I thought I had better say it before Chris "don't let him drive my race car" Cobetto did):D

nasava
02-26-2004, 02:08 PM
...and I know what you were thinking here:

"Daym. How DOES Shugg do it?"

I'm surprised you have time to post. I would have thought you would be rushing to San Fransisco. ;)

HistoricMustang
02-26-2004, 06:59 PM
From someone who did this for a lot of years and now sits on the sideline.........................Guys/Girls, when you race for beer it is a social thing. This group has the best potential of any I have been around but you are going to tear yourselves apart.

I will never forget Dan asking everyone at VIR this year to keep this stuff off the internet, yet here it is in its worst form.

Wait until you go through two or three divorces, perhaps loose your kids, have serious money problems or start loosing close friends and relatives. That is hard times, this racing stuff is nothing.

The odds are very, very slim that you will be at LeMans or Daytona (just hard reality) and make a living doing this racing stuff, so relax and build some lifelong friendships.

I had lunch a couple of weeks ago with two racing buddies that had developed their relationship 40 years ago. What a great afternoon. Will you be able to do the same?

Drink a beer and relax.

Good Racing,

Henry

nasava
02-26-2004, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by HistoricMustang
From someone who did this for a lot of years and now sits on the sideline.........................Guys/Girls, when you race for beer it is a social thing. This group has the best potential of any I have been around but you are going to tear yourselves apart.

I will never forget Dan asking everyone at VIR this year to keep this stuff off the internet, yet here it is in its worst form.

Wait until you go through two or three divorces, perhaps loose your kids, have serious money problems or start loosing close friends and relatives. That is hard times, this racing stuff is nothing.

The odds are very, very slim that you will be at LeMans or Daytona (just hard reality) and make a living doing this racing stuff, so relax and build some lifelong friendships.

I had lunch a couple of weeks ago with two racing buddies that had developed their relationship 40 years ago. What a great afternoon. Will you be able to do the same?

Drink a beer and relax.

Good Racing,

Henry


Salute!!

wreckm
02-27-2004, 10:03 AM
I already miss you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who will I have a beverage with now? jay

rshelbygt
02-27-2004, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by wreckm
I already miss you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who will I have a beverage with now? jay

Beverage.....did somebody say beverage?!? Count me in...:thumbsup:

wildhorsesracin
02-27-2004, 11:56 AM
Yeah Me too! I think we all need a good drunken BBQ... :thumbsup:

svt_coupe
02-27-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by smarcus69
That's awesome!! Shuggy, Chris will harass you forever for that one.
I love it!

I fear you might be right. This morning I woke up and had the strangest voicemail on my phone. Sounded like someone throwing up. I think Don Cobetto has hired some muscle to break my loafer legs.