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Black Horse
04-24-2005, 03:25 PM
Whatcha hiding under curtain #3?????????????????????

Black Horse
04-24-2005, 03:26 PM
Spy photo - source unknown......

Dean95CobraR
04-24-2005, 10:44 PM
Dave, you are a bad bad man. :D


The official unveiling will be May 21st at Putnam. :thumbsup:

kurt borton
04-25-2005, 01:56 AM
I can't wait to see it! :thumbsup:

johnbasf
04-25-2005, 07:20 AM
Did he steal the Tone-Wilson car???????? :rotf:

Dean95CobraR
04-25-2005, 09:03 AM
Did he steal the Tone-Wilson car???????? :rotf:



That would have been much cheaper! :p

Cobra-R
04-25-2005, 09:38 AM
Come on, give some of us non-putman goers a preview. :thumbsup:

Brian

PS: Dave, did you get the email I sent you last week?

b_tone
04-25-2005, 01:09 PM
Did he steal the Tone-Wilson car???????? :rotf:

If he's going to be allowed to race at Putnam he certainly can't drive our car, it's not legal.

The true test will be the lap times......

kevin
04-26-2005, 02:56 AM
Come on, give some of us non-putman goers a preview. :thumbsup:

Brian

PS: Dave, did you get the email I sent you last week?

yea, what he said dean. i know you have my email address to send some pics too :D

Dean95CobraR
04-26-2005, 10:40 AM
If he's going to be allowed to race at Putnam he certainly can't drive our car, it's not legal.

The true test will be the lap times......


Here's a special sneak preview just for Tone. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: ;)

b_tone
04-26-2005, 10:48 AM
Here's a special sneak preview just for Tone. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: ;)

As funny as that may be, lap times still count. The ball is truly in your court. :D

Cobra-R
04-26-2005, 11:02 AM
You don't get awards for lap times, only wins. I have faith in ya, Dean!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Brian

b_tone
04-26-2005, 11:06 AM
You don't get awards for lap times, only wins. I have faith in ya, Dean!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Brian

Then we're at am impass. We are not going to be allowed to race AI in our car so we'll never know where the yardstick is. Too bad I would have liked to have run heads up. Oh well.

Now that Burnetts out who is going to be the big competition?

Cobra-R
04-26-2005, 11:08 AM
Then we're at am impass. We are not going to be allowed to race AI in our car so we'll never know where the yardstick is. Too bad I would have liked to have run heads up. Oh well.

You twist one of deans arms, I'll twist the other to get him out to a AV8SS race. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Now that Burnetts out who is going to be the big competition?

What happend?

b_tone
04-26-2005, 01:35 PM
What happend?

Word on the street was that he heard of the Mid Coast Performance built Mustang Driven by Dean Smeltzer and simply got scared........ :eek: :eek:









Only playin. He broke his leg coacing/playing soccer from what I hear.

Dean95CobraR
04-26-2005, 02:34 PM
Then we're at am impass. We are not going to be allowed to race AI in our car so we'll never know where the yardstick is. Too bad I would have liked to have run heads up. Oh well.

Now that Burnetts out who is going to be the big competition?


I think Ted Swartz could be really tough this year. I believe he is going to be at Putnam.

Is it too early to start campaigning for a rules change for next year? It seems like NASA would be able to allow "package" systems.

Dean95CobraR
04-26-2005, 02:36 PM
The ball is truly in your court. :D

I'm an official member of "Team Raisin" so you've definitely have me beat there. :D

Dean95CobraR
04-26-2005, 02:40 PM
You twist one of deans arms, I'll twist the other to get him out to a AV8SS race. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


I may get to a race someday but they always seem to be the weekend before, same weekend or the weekend after all my AI races. I don't have a set of NITTO tires either and I have no idea if my motor combo is legal or not. I don't have an airbox that is specified in the rules.

Beaverun is the only race I could possibly make because I won't be going to the Waterford Hills race in August.

Dean95CobraR
04-26-2005, 02:44 PM
Word on the street was that he heard of the Mid Coast Performance built Mustang Driven by Dean Smeltzer and simply got scared........ :eek: :eek: .

Everyone knows you're a BSer but they aren't going to believe that one. :D









Only playin. He broke his leg coacing/playing soccer from what I hear.

That stinks. :(
Doesn't he know he's too old for that crap! He needs to stick with a safer sport like Auto Racing. :D

b_tone
04-26-2005, 03:09 PM
I think Ted Swartz could be really tough this year. I believe he is going to be at Putnam.

Is it too early to start campaigning for a rules change for next year? It seems like NASA would be able to allow "package" systems.

Ted is always quick, but he is running Midwest and you are running OH/IN right?

Oh well perhaps we'll bring it out as an AIX car next year.

Black Horse
04-26-2005, 03:29 PM
Ted is always quick, but he is running Midwest and you are running OH/IN right?

Oh well perhaps we'll bring it out as an AIX car next year.


Alright - who are you and what have you done with Tone?? :D

Dean95CobraR
04-26-2005, 03:35 PM
Ted is always quick, but he is running Midwest and you are running OH/IN right?

Oh well perhaps we'll bring it out as an AIX car next year.


I was told that he will be running both series this year. I don't know if that has changed but that was his intention at the beginning of the year.

Cobra-R
04-26-2005, 03:51 PM
I was told that he will be running both series this year. I don't know if that has changed but that was his intention at the beginning of the year.


Ted will be good competition, maybe too good. :eek: :p

Brian

kevin
04-27-2005, 12:50 AM
Word on the street was that he heard of the Mid Coast Performance built Mustang Driven by Dean Smeltzer and simply got scared........ :eek: :eek:









Only playin. He broke his leg coacing/playing soccer from what I hear.

who broke it????? :D

mwilson7
04-27-2005, 07:45 PM
There is another way........

July 23-24th at Gingerman we are putting on an SVTOA event and are looking for instructors...... hint hint Dean..... Same could be done at the SCMC event in September with the powers that be in SCMC..... :007:

kurt borton
04-28-2005, 11:38 AM
Don't worry....there's plenty of competition on the way.


Then we're at am impass. We are not going to be allowed to race AI in our car so we'll never know where the yardstick is. Too bad I would have liked to have run heads up. Oh well.

Now that Burnetts out who is going to be the big competition?

b_tone
04-28-2005, 11:50 AM
Don't worry....there's plenty of competition on the way.

Time will tell, and everyone has a big stick on the internet. Things will work themselves out on the track. Perhaps after all your big competition comes out we'll put the littlel #29 car back to AI specs and come out so play, even though it won't be "AI legal" it will still show what the car could have done. Until then we'll watch on the sidelines and observe.

When can we expect to see the influx of competition Mr. Borton?

Dean95CobraR
04-28-2005, 12:00 PM
There is another way........

July 23-24th at Gingerman we are putting on an SVTOA event and are looking for instructors...... hint hint Dean..... Same could be done at the SCMC event in September with the powers that be in SCMC..... :007:

I can't commit to any other non-AI race event besides the SCMC track day. Way too many things going on this summer. I am trying to find some kind of race or track day in the month of August since I won't be going to the Waterford event. AI is racing down at Road Atlanta but that is such a long drive(I love that track though!). :bounce:

mwilson7
04-28-2005, 01:55 PM
We are doing Putman on August 27-28th. Always looking for instructors!! There is also an AV8SS event August 6-7th at Beaverun.

cobrabitn
04-28-2005, 10:58 PM
Same could be done at the SCMC event in September with the powers that be in SCMC.....

Not really sure what you are talking about here Mark????

Brian G has all the power for the Gingerman event. Does he have some magical powers or something the rest of us don't know about? :rotf:

Maybe it is a Minn-e-soda thing? :)

cobrabitn
04-28-2005, 11:02 PM
It's something about when someone says a track event and SCMC in the same sentence that makes me want to post this picture.... :rotf: I don't know why though? :crazy: :scratch:

mwilson7
04-28-2005, 11:05 PM
See! Tony knows what I'm talking about!

Cobra-R
04-28-2005, 11:58 PM
I am trying to find some kind of race or track day in the month of August

Remember Northwoods at RA is in August now?

Brian

kurt borton
04-29-2005, 02:44 AM
Time will tell, and everyone has a big stick on the internet. Things will work themselves out on the track. Perhaps after all your big competition comes out we'll put the littlel #29 car back to AI specs and come out so play, even though it won't be "AI legal" it will still show what the car could have done. Until then we'll watch on the sidelines and observe.

When can we expect to see the influx of competition Mr. Borton? I most definitely don't mean to come across as having a big stick on the internet....I don't even drive the cars. But I can tell you there are several competitors that did good amounts of work on their cars over the winter, and should not be overlooked. As always it's going to take some time to work out the kinks, but there is plenty of competition.

And then there's this one...
http://www.midcoastperformance.com/id3.html
http://www.midcoastperformance.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.midcoastperformance.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/dsc01560.jpg&target=tlx_new

Dean95CobraR
04-29-2005, 09:30 AM
Remember Northwoods at RA is in August now?

Brian

Thanks Brian!!

I'll look into it. I've missed that event too many years in a row. :bounce:

b_tone
04-29-2005, 03:43 PM
And then there's this one...
http://www.midcoastperformance.com/id3.html
http://www.midcoastperformance.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.midcoastperformance.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/dsc01560.jpg&target=tlx_new

Interesting.....Does that V6 have the Al block that they ran in the Roundy Round series or ths steel one?

Is this an AIX car?

johnbasf
04-29-2005, 07:22 PM
Interesting.....Does that V6 have the Al block that they ran in the Roundy Round series or ths steel one?

Is this an AIX car?

Is it legal to have a Chevy engine in a Ford? This was not meant to be funny. :D

kurt borton
04-29-2005, 07:46 PM
Yes, you can put a Chevy engine in a Ford. That was one of the specific questions I asked when I was building the car.
And no it's not an aluminum block.

Dean95CobraR
04-30-2005, 07:51 AM
Is it legal to have a Chevy engine in a Ford? This was not meant to be funny. :D


It may be legal but it sure isn't moral! :eek: :D ;)

Black Horse
04-30-2005, 09:13 AM
It may be legal but it sure isn't moral! :eek: :D ;)

Moral? It's downright sickening. What's next? Brian putting a mod motor in the Z06? Dogs sleeping with cats? Shift of the gravitational alignments, earthquakes, volcanoes? Oh woe...the end of the world is coming, I tell you.......




:D


Damn, those "Baby Grand" Motors are a hot ticket.....just be glad it's not one of the Toyotas!

johnbasf
04-30-2005, 02:16 PM
I was going to asked this question on the NASA Forums but they banned me. :rotf: :rotf:

b_tone
04-30-2005, 06:27 PM
Yes, you can put a Chevy engine in a Ford. That was one of the specific questions I asked when I was building the car.
And no it's not an aluminum block.

Kurt, from the looks of it you "massaged" the firewall and cowl area quite a bit for the purpose of moving the motor back in the car. The actual firewall has been 'masaged' into bowl shape rather than the nearly vertical stock shape, the pinch flange has been either removed entirely or has been cut/folded into a flat section and stretched with the firewall/cowl and the cowl are has also been stretched to allow room for the air clearner.

Can you help me understand how that is acceptable and in accordance with rule #7.3 (first paragraph). I don't see any of the exceptions listed (letters a-h) that would provide for the deviation of that rule in this specific case?

Though the firewall/cowl may not have been cut is has been massaged. If this sort of action/modification to the firewall/cowl is permissible can I use the same type of method (i.e. using a torch to heat metal until it's easy to move/relocate/dimple) on the rear frame rail to provide additional clearance for say a Ford IRS car. Example, moving the material of the frame rail without cutting or removing material much like you did with the firewall/cowl area.

Any help you can give me to understanding what is 'massaging' and what is "modifying" will help me with a car that is currently being engineered for possible entrance into AI in the future.

Thanks, and I do appreciate your help on this matter. I am not trying to cause problems, start contraversy or anything other than stay up to date as to what it will take to build/develope a competitive car in the future. With 'massaging' such as what has been done on Ted's car it would be possible to move the Ford motors back an additional 1-3" depending on just how much massaging can/will be allowed. I hope that you see the validity of my questions. Feel free to forward this question onto JWL for clarification. If you want to take this discussion offline simply email me. I hope to hear from you soon.

Brian.

kurt borton
05-01-2005, 01:08 AM
Actually Brian, I clearanced the firewall with a hammer to gain access for the distributor. So if you look under 7.3b you'll note this is legal...electrical access. You might be surprised how little hammering I actually did...no torch, dolley, or any other tool was used..just a good old ball peen hammer. The air cleaner doesn't even come close to the area which was clearanced, so I don't see the issue there either. The fact is, I could have placed the engine in the exact location it sits now without clearancing the firewall. I would not have been able to remove the distributor without yanking the engine, so this was done for ease of maintenance, and access to electrical components and not for any kind of performance advantage. The car also has a 3 stage external pump wet sump oiling system, which I also got approval for.

I helped another AI driver move his Ford engine back 3" in a Mustang this winter....it didn't take any massive amount of clearancing at all. But I can tell you any more than 3" and I hope you don't have a solid lifter cam, because removing the valve covers will be a big pain in the butt.

I'm not the person who makes the rules, so you should ask JWL any questions you have. I spoke with him directly about any issue I had. As the tech. inspector for 2 regions, I wanted to make certain the cars I build are 100% legal.

kurt borton
05-01-2005, 01:16 AM
Moral? It's downright sickening. What's next? Brian putting a mod motor in the Z06? Dogs sleeping with cats? Shift of the gravitational alignments, earthquakes, volcanoes? Oh woe...the end of the world is coming, I tell you.......




:D


Damn, those "Baby Grand" Motors are a hot ticket.....just be glad it's not one of the Toyotas!

If it makes it any better, our engine builder wouldn't let me paint the engine block orange like I wanted to.

The original plan was to use a Ford V6, but finding the SVO V6 parts proved a LOT harder than finding the Chevy V6 parts. It's a 289 though, close enough right?

racercosmo
05-01-2005, 05:56 PM
Where does that bumper cover come from?

kurt borton
05-01-2005, 07:55 PM
Where does that bumper cover come from?
It's a Razzi bumper cover. I was surprised at the quality, it's a nice piece.

racercosmo
05-01-2005, 08:17 PM
We put an ABC on a 96 Cobra recently, but I like the looks of that one better, and the lower opening is a bit bigger.

mwilson7
05-01-2005, 10:10 PM
Kurt,

How is a 3 stage wet sump oil system any different cost wise than a dry system? Seems like this goes against the intent of the class.......

Sounds like your going to be going down the same road we went down last year.....good luck!

kurt borton
05-02-2005, 12:44 AM
Kurt,

How is a 3 stage wet sump oil system any different cost wise than a dry system? Seems like this goes against the intent of the class.......

Sounds like your going to be going down the same road we went down last year.....good luck!
I can understand your point there Mark, but in this application it was actually cheaper to go with the external pump.

mwilson7
05-02-2005, 11:52 AM
The application shouldn't have anything to do with it to be honest. I asked that question last year and was told it was illegal and now it is allowed. Doesn't seem that the rules have changed on paper but apparently they have.

At least the rules are remaining consistantly inconsistant.

Once again I am amazed......

racercosmo
05-02-2005, 12:34 PM
Is there anything in the rules that says you can't use an external pump? I can't find anything, but maybe I overlooked something. I'm not causing an argument, I just need to know.

mwilson7
05-02-2005, 01:58 PM
I was told it was against the "intent of the rules" as a dry sump system is basically the same as a wet sump system with an external pump except for the external oil tank. Hell, I can lower the engine at least 2 inches and move it back at least another 1" in the blue car if I could go to an external pump.

Black Horse
05-02-2005, 03:30 PM
My interpretation of the rules is that you cannot use a dry-sump system - period. I see no issue with an externally mounted pump so long as the sump/pick-up is wet (in the pan).

mwilson7
05-02-2005, 04:04 PM
So then why not just allow dry sumps? What's the difference/advantage?

racercosmo
05-02-2005, 04:21 PM
Mark, it seems that you have a problem with asking about the legality of parts and not getting anything in writing. Someone says you can do something, then they say you can't. Then someone said you couldn't do something and now you can.

mwilson7
05-02-2005, 04:25 PM
Cosmo,

I realized last year that having anything in writing doesn't mean squat. I've got an email that says we can notch our frame rails but guess what......

Anything that I was told we couldn't do I didn't bother saving as there was no need to save it. As I said before, I am continually amazed.

Kurt, looks like a nice car. Can't wait to hear the reviews from Putman.

cobrabitn
05-02-2005, 07:19 PM
Av8ss!

racercosmo
05-02-2005, 11:58 PM
Mark, I hope you understand that I'm only trying to lighten the mood here and not trying to be offensive.

mwilson7
05-03-2005, 06:22 AM
Cosmo,

I understand that but at the same time I don't really find what happened to be us to be very funny. I feel more sorry for Kurt and company as I see the car in the picture being the car for 2005 that has some rules changed.

Anyone want to place a bet?

racercosmo
05-03-2005, 12:12 PM
Atleast they didn't make your drivers illegal.

I do have an interest in this. There is also a car on the West coast that is running an external pump setup, and i would bet there will be one less car if that's made illegal. AI has typically always been about "if it ain't in the rules, it's legal" and I can't find anything that says it's illegal.

b_tone
05-03-2005, 12:20 PM
Atleast they didn't make your drivers illegal.

I do have an interest in this. There is also a car on the West coast that is running an external pump setup, and i would bet there will be one less car if that's made illegal. AI has typically always been about "if it ain't in the rules, it's legal" and I can't find anything that says it's illegal.

1- no comment

2- can anyone explain to me the difference between an external pump on a dry sump system and an external pump on a wet sump system. They both pull a vacuum on the motor if I am not mistaken. If the wetsump oil pan is designed correctly it moves all the oil away from the crank giving you the same benefits of a 'true dry sump' system. Unless I am thinking about this wrong how are the systems different?

Respectfully,

BPT

racercosmo
05-03-2005, 12:38 PM
The pump is just another part added inline with the oil cooler and filter, right? It sucks oil through the same pickup, out the same oil filter outlet, then through the same hoses and cooler and filter, then back into the same inlet. I don't know about other engines, but on a 4.6, the only differences are that the oil pump is on the opposite side of the filter housing, and the oil pump isn't going to fail.

mwilson7
05-03-2005, 07:26 PM
Atleast they didn't make your drivers illegal.

I do have an interest in this. There is also a car on the West coast that is running an external pump setup, and i would bet there will be one less car if that's made illegal. AI has typically always been about "if it ain't in the rules, it's legal" and I can't find anything that says it's illegal.

At least one of us.....

If it is legal I have a pretty interesting idea for a "wet sump" system if anyones interested :D

kurt borton
05-04-2005, 02:33 AM
Sounds to me like you have the right idea. The trouble to me though seems you want to make other cars illegal, instead of making your own car legal.

1- no comment

2- can anyone explain to me the difference between an external pump on a dry sump system and an external pump on a wet sump system. They both pull a vacuum on the motor if I am not mistaken. If the wetsump oil pan is designed correctly it moves all the oil away from the crank giving you the same benefits of a 'true dry sump' system. Unless I am thinking about this wrong how are the systems different?

Respectfully,

BPT

mwilson7
05-04-2005, 06:03 AM
Sounds to me like you have the right idea. The trouble to me though seems you want to make other cars illegal, instead of making your own car legal.


Kurt,

When we built our car it was legal, just as you believe yours is.

I would like to hear the reason why you believe a wet sump with an external pump should be legal while a dry sump shouldn't be though. I'm surprised you don't see the issue....

With the current acceptance of car to car contact I am not inclined to run in AI. I don't have the time or money to continously fix "incidental contact" ever race.

racercosmo
05-04-2005, 11:52 AM
The rules say no dry sumps, they don't say no external pump wet sumps. It's pretty easy to interpret the rules when they're spelled out clearly.
I don't actually believe dry sumps should be illegal.

Black Horse
05-04-2005, 12:59 PM
The rules say no dry sumps, they don't say no external pump wet sumps. It's pretty easy to interpret the rules when they're spelled out clearly.
I don't actually believe dry sumps should be illegal.

I would like to chime in on the dry vs. wet sump issue at foot here (I believe you should be able to run either - personally it doesnt matter to me at this point in time).

In my way of thinking a "wet" sump set-up is/can be anything that uses the Oil Pan as the primary Motor Oil Reservoir. A "Dry" Sump system is when a stand-alone oil reservoir is utilized as the primary means of containing motor oil. A note of clarification - when I speak of reservoirs I speak of ACTIVE reservoir, not static as in the Accusump (more of a protection device). With this definition the location/type of oil pumping is not considered.

Maybe we should take this conversation to the NASAForums to get input from the rest of the masses.

mwilson7
05-04-2005, 01:45 PM
So then why not allow dry sumps then? I'm just trying to just understand the rational behind allowing one and not the other.

(I believe they should both be allowed for the record)

Black Horse
05-04-2005, 03:14 PM
(I believe they should both be allowed for the record)

I agree!

Black Horse
05-12-2005, 04:12 PM
Here is your very own chance to own a external wet sump system!

http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23260

Dean95CobraR
05-18-2005, 12:37 PM
Looks like we will have a great field for this weekends race. The weather is suppose to be good too. :thumbsup:

Jason Andrew AI
Greg Banish AI
Robin Burnett AI
Bill Collins AI
David Diehl AI
Matthew Erickson AI
Jeffrey Feit AI
Kris Houghton AI
Marc Ruhling AI
Tom Schneidau AI
Ted Schwartz AI
Dean Smeltzer AI
Greg Walker AI
Cameron McElwrath AI
Chris Nickell AI
Stan Berry AIX
Greg Brown AIX
Tim Laplante AIX
Michael Remen AIX
paul faessler AIV
Matt King CMC
Keith Orawiec CMC
Thomas Petrosky CMC


I see that Robin in his '05 will be there. His old broken bones seem to heal pretty fast for an old guy. ;)

johnbasf
05-19-2005, 04:33 PM
Good luck Dean. :thumbsup:

Dean95CobraR
05-19-2005, 05:49 PM
Good luck Dean. :thumbsup:


Thanks John!

Black Horse
05-20-2005, 09:10 AM
Good luck Dean. :thumbsup:

Just don't scratch the paint!

I can't wait, what a field of cars! What is the National record for AI/AIX/AIV/CMC participants at any one race?

johnbasf
05-20-2005, 04:20 PM
35 at VIR?

Black Horse
05-23-2005, 03:57 PM
http://www.popsfun.com/Putnam/paint.jpg

As soon as I get some better photos I'll post them up. Damn fine looking ride if you ask me! :cool:

johnbasf
05-23-2005, 04:19 PM
Any results Dave??

Dean95CobraR
05-23-2005, 04:30 PM
As soon as I get some better photos I'll post them up. Damn fine looking ride if you ask me! :cool:

I was feeling a little gritty at that point of the race. I had to do a little dirt (actually mud) tracking to avoid a spinning factory 5. :eek:

Dean95CobraR
05-23-2005, 05:14 PM
Any results Dave??

I don't have sheets with the times but finish order for both races was -

Robin Burnett
Jason Andrews
Dean Smeltzer

It was nose to tail the entire first race and the second one was almost as close.

It was a great weekend. :bounce:

Cobra-R
05-23-2005, 10:41 PM
Congrats Dean!!!!!!! Glad the car ran well, you'll get them next time. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Brian

Dave: Damn nice paint job you did there!! :thumbsup:

redsnake99
05-24-2005, 06:11 PM
There you go, Dean.....blaming an agricultural excursion on someone else.
I've seen you do the dirt thing before, in Atlanta, if I remember correctly.

:thumbsup:

Black Horse
06-06-2005, 10:16 PM
Here is a fantastic shot of Dean during Putnam (Thanks for the pic Dean/Jason)- If nothing else the car won't blend in!